RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Ryuujin - 06-11-2015
(06-11-2015, 12:07 PM)Nyumii Wrote: So I've read that Avalon's ocean life can potentially grow much bigger in size than the large herbivores on the surface, and that there is at least one predatory species called the leviathans that are apparently massive enough to smash through thin areas in the ice shelf to hunt some of their prey. Just how large are these leviathans on average, and how much of a threat would one be to a modern-day Avali pack that is out in the wilderness and unaware that they are on its menu? One would assume that their society would have developed ways of detecting one before it pounced.
And with much of the world's marine fauna being able to grow to such large sizes, do the seas play host to a substantial number of predators, and has this stigmatized them to the Avali as a global case of 'shark-infested waters', or probably more likely, 'here there be dragons'?
Actually the existance of ice shelves I ruled out after remembering a simple bit of physics:
Ice is somewhat unique in that it floats, because water in it's crystalline form actually REDUCES density, due to a quirk of hydrogen bonding. But MOST substances, when they freeze solid become denser, including ammonia. Ammonia ice would sink, and thus ammonia ice shelves would quickly collapse. Even water ice won't stay up, because water is (considerably) denser than ammonia. (Swimming in ammonia takes rather more effort than swimming in water).
That's not to say they don't still have huge aquatic species to worry about, but they'd be geographically isolated to just the deeper ocean regions and wouldn't pose a significant threat. They certainly have the technology and armaments to prevent attacks by such creatures there days for the rare occasion they might utilise ocean vessels. Such a creature'd be VERY easy to spot on sonar
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 07-14-2015
Hi, Ryu, a pal of mine sent me a critique of your lore quite a while ago, something that he never reaally finished so. It tends to read like, really run-on. But I thought it wans an interesting read. It looks like hes really mad, but hes just fishing for replys. its something he does when he wants to argue, no, debate, like he likes to say.
The problems with the Avali are twofold, the very basic conceptual ideas behind the science of it, and the fridge logic involved with the general lore.
Alright, lets begin with the start of the basic problems.
Biology
Ammonia based biologies are an extremely novel idea, however, if you are going to use them, you need to be aware of the drawbacks and have to write accordingly. For example, they are extremely poor thermal regulators, having only 1/4th of its thermal control properties (and with basic movement or sustaining basic life by breakdown of energy storage molecules causing a gradual buildup of heat that would push ammonia out of its life sustaining range easily, meaning the Avali would very quickly overheat, even on their native planet, just by exerting themselves), and are extremely poor polar molecules, meaning that they would have extremely diminished and slow biologies, if they ever arose at all.(It would be interesting to see how the Avali handle thermal regulation though.) Any interaction with water would be hilariously hazardous to their biology, since interaction with water produces ammonium, an acidic substance which would wreak havoc on them, seeing as their primary solvent is basic in nature. (Interestingly, ammonium is the result of biological waste processes in normal creatures, excreted raw in fish from their gills, or combined into urea or uric acid in other animals, as it's relative acidity is toxic to basic life proccesses) The Avali would drown from blood-filled lungs in any atmosphere with water vapor from having thousands of holes poked in their blood vessels.
The author also needs to understand that methane is an interesting gas to inhale, but this brings a host to a whole bunch of other issues, especially if the organism does not consume oxygen from the air, it is going to need to get it from its diet. Sentient life cannot exist PERIOD without oxygen as it is simply the best electron receptor around. There are other methods to collect energy, but that would be extremely slow and would cause oxygen to be fatal to the resultant organism as oxygen tends to be favored in many chemical configurates (it is technically a corrosive gas!) and would be extremely inefficient and slow, reducing the possibility of a sentient organism to nil, as sentience requires spare energy to exist. Speaking of the lack of oxygen, how would they sanitize food without fires? (Side note, there would also be many basic problems in infrastructure and tech building without combustion) Maybe it could be the reason why they preserve their food into jerky, but you would have to tackle how they would sanitize other food items without severe food poisoning; note that mastering fire is what enabled us to get easier to break down protein and other foodstuff, enabling surplus energy to build up and eventually contribute to sentience.
Furthermore, with "toughened arteries" and a system under pressure constantly against the environment, how would their body handle the non-pressurized areas of their physiology? What about their interstitial fluid that has gasses dissolved in it and is constantly responsible for keeping cells alive and handling the immune system? How would that be introduced back into their veins after being forced out as part of hydrostatic pressure? (especially as it would be amplified under pressure) It would require a large amount of energy to push this back in, whereas this is incredibly simple in Terran vertebrates (with smooth muscle contractions in the lymph system intermittently returning it back to the bodies' vasculatory system). If not the organism would get edema, plus it would be organically more simple to simply pressurize the entire organism from the surface down, but this also poses a question as to why a pressurized system would be needed in the first place? How such a system would even be selected for in this type of environment is also a mystery.
I hope the legs are drawn in an artistic way (and the art seems to differ greatly on this, alternating between outright impossible to barely plausible), because with them being at a compressed < position, it would be poor for long purpose use and would consume massive amounts of energy to even walk, in fact, it would make it incredibly awkward to walk, with them needing to stick out their arms constantly to stabilize; even then would give them a jerky gait especially since their head does not stick out to counterbalance with their tail. (it's the primary reason winged birds cant walk right AND if you thought the walk cycle looked off, that was your brain spotting that incorrect pattern) If it was steeper it would make sense and would better function as an elastic spring to return basic energy costs. With feathers, they would also have an extremely limited range of motion of their limbs, being restriced from moving in even basic and dextrous ways. (which brings to question, how they would be even able to use swords and guns?) Their teeth is also an issue, with constantly regrowing plates instead, and the way the teeth are arranged and shaped, would only make it easy to slice food, but not tear, grind, or break down fiber that would slow digestion and cost energy. (Making them obligate carnivores would be an interesting challenge though) The statement that the Avali can glide is really misleading, considering their "wings" are as areodynamic as two cardboard sheets, since their wing shape is in the OPPOSITE manner, a flipped triangle.
Speaking of birds, how the heck does their reproduction make sense? Admittedly, I try not to have issue with this since it prevents me from seeing... things.(I have the sexual maturity of a twelve year old, give me a break). Cloaca kissing simply won't work at that large of a scale, as it starts to have conception issues from twice the size of a chicken, up. With an organism of that size, reproductive material has a LOT more distance to travel and would cause immense conception difficulties. Its the reason why emus and ostriches have...important bits. They would have to mate hundreds of times before they would even be successful. One big problem too with hearing. The nerve impulse that would protect their sense of sound would have to be EXTREMELY fast since sound is much quicker than you believe. At most it would protect them from long term damage from constant loud sounds but not instantaneous explosively loud sounds. It would not make much sense to use it as a primary sensory organ without supplemental help, because unless the atmosphere is just right and there are no obstacles, sound scatters like crazy and is absorbed by objects (some more than others). In a way this could be solved with echolocation, as that uses an extremely high frequency sound that is not as readily absorbed by objects, but, again, that poses more problems than it would solve.
Their eyes are one of my biggest pet peeves. Without a spherical shape, they would not even function as pinhole picture visualizers and would be extremely poor for seeing even a foot in front of you, only showing blurred smudges of color; spherical shapes in eyes were selected for because of the way how photon refraction works. (Why the hell would they even have augmented reality by the way? Its extremely obtrusive, distracting and makes no sense for a hearing based race. In fact, it's one of the reasons they are having so much trouble with google glass.) I can understand the lack of a lens, but without an iris, their eyes would be destroyed by even remotely strong sources of light, with blue light especially having a strong effect on destroying cone and rod function. (Light is energy shot out everywhere and heats up objects, destroys proteins, and is generally a bother as much as a boon). Furthermore, their eyes wouldn't even appear black due to light scattering out of it at an extremely shallow angle, especially without an iris to restrict it, appearing to actually be more purple to dark purple in color. (Like red-eye, but without a need for a strong source of light and a cheezy set-up photo)
Finally, the ecology of the Avali makes little to no sense whatsoever, as without the ideal conditions to obtain energy from the sun, life could not be sustained on the planet's surface with anything larger than microbes. Admittedly, geotheremic energy obtainment is actually relatively possible, but you would need to provide an explaination as to why life left the ocean. Any residual energy or chemical potential in the planet's soil/water itself would long be consumed by microbes before they even got to the biofilm stage.
Technology + Logistics/Lore
While the basic design aesthetics are impressive (if a bit creatively sterile for a race as apparently creative as the Avali) the weapons look like something that was cobbled out of the plumbing section of Home Depot, and some of the descriptions tend to be tremendously ego stroking. (Why the hell do they have a Latin taxonomic designation?) For example, try examining basic tent structures or the led wall screens (Enormously dated, check out the flexible OLED screen). And the Cancer-tents. Oh god, the cancer-tents. Tell me what OTHER wondrous substance is fibrous in nature, was thought would revolutionize all commercial applications ever and that causes respiratory issues, skin lesions and lung cancer? Even attempting to mitigate the cancerous nature of carbon nano tubes would greatly reduce their versatility, which means that they would be limited to use in non-degradable plastic or other solid non-degrading materials or certain enclosed electronic applications, etc; meaning they could not be used or woven into fabrics as they would fray and release hazardous materials into the air, like lethal lint. On its own, carbon nanotubes aren't even that versatile; their true potential lies within composite materials. Also, fabric ribbons wouldn't be able to stay up in low wind conditions unless they were microns-thin and would be more fragile than a soap bubble.
Their weapons are poorly conceived; the guns are neat, but railgun systems tend to require a ton of work and calibration to even be useable outside of space, requiring a special loaded round just to even fire, not to mention the technology scales down poorly (heat, electical consumption and magnetic field control/suppresion, build up of waste material shed from sabots); Its unusable for handguns and rifles but wonderful for artillery and ship based systems. The swords aren't even swords, they are glorified knives; a sword without mass isn't even a sword in the first place. It would be extremely easy to deflect and redirect, and would have poor penetration power, even when sharp and ultrasonic powered. Ultrasonic has its fair share of issues, too low power on ultrasonic, it destroys the texture of the meat, making it unsuitable for use in consumption, or too high, and you risk fusing pockets of flesh together, causing the blood to pool in parts of the creature, which would make it rot exceptionally fast; it is counter-intuitive as a use for hunting. What the heck is up with the exploding blades? What happens if a creature twists with the blade partially embedded in it? A glass powered fragmentation grenade in your face. Why do it with a twist, why not a button? Why are dedicated ground vehicles relatively rare among the Avali? Flying vehicles have their place, but they, again, scale very poorly down logistically, using tons of energy which could be spent on ground vehicles. There is a reason why ground craft are still relevant and why we aren't zipping the fuck around with flying vehicles. If their aircraft rely largely on easily-exchangeable turbines and rotors to provide lift in a variety of atmospheric situations, that is overengineering at the finest; why not have wheels (they don't even need to be air filled) or even treads, and what about the logistics of constantly adjusting blades for each and every atmosphere? There seems to be a poor grasp of hard-suits, as unless they were full bodied, they would not protect against pressure deficiencies adequately, a big problem being that with the high blood flow to the feather area, and blood pinfeathers, would cause bubbles to develop quickly in their bloodstream, and if only the head would be uncovered, the point of failure would actually be amplified and would multiply the already large pressure differences. Having a temp controlled suit without being completely insulated would also be a humongous loss of energy and the resulting severe temperature differences would cause illness and tissue damage or impede proper biochemical biology within the organism.
There is quite a big problem with this improperly planned bit- "The same system that allows most Avali to access to the Nexus also allows pilots to synchronize with their vehicles, controlling it as an extension of their body and using external sensors to 'see’ in 360 degrees around the craft despite the common lack of windows that is a hallmark of Avali vehicle design." Wait, so you are going to use a brain, an easily fallible component in military stratigies, rather than using a computer? Which would be much faster than organic thought processes at that point; photon and quantuum computers are EXTREMELY fast (not even getting into other computational structures, such as memcomputers), and furthermore, would be more dedicated to logical calculations, as opposed to an organic brain, which would have most of its thinking potential used up by simply keeping the body alive. (Wetware CPUs are rather silly in concept) Their ships are the most unintuitive and nonsensical ideas for an air or space craft. Articulating parts are a point of failure in common aircraft, and a cardinal sin in spacecraft, unless the ship can make it in and out without their wings working. It is the entire reason why spacecraft have a very simplified profile and very geometrically uncomplicated.
Their social structure is extremely confusing and nonsensical in itself.It's funny that they are called packs, when they are exactly the opposite. A pack has strongly defined biological roles, that are interchangeable depending on environmental needs, and are loss tolerant and can accommodate "lone wolves" in fact. Whereas this one is loosely defined, loss intolerant (how the hell would they even go to war then?), causes individuals to go insane (what the hell? How is that biologically advantageous?) and resembles a collective individual rather than a collection of persons. This would make hunting, an already huge gamble, an exceptionally high risk low reward endevour, which again, doesn't mesh well with the idea of them being pack hunters. I find the idea of the Nexus interesting, but tech augmentation has its limits, it can't grant new senses willy nilly, as brains only have a specific amount of neural circuits that can accommodate to change, and is impossible to push senses too far without giving them a goddamn seizure or putting some sort of middleman, so to speak, that would collect information in a more easier way for them to process (but it would be pretty improperly implemented compared to a naturally integrated sense). A large portion of the brain's function is to collect and restrict the amount of information we percieve. Most of your senses are actually toned DOWN from what they are capable of. A very simple exercise to demonstrate this is to simply watch a very unpleasant video filled with repulive creatures, like insects, spiders, snakes, or something plain horrifiying. Your sense of touch will actually amplify to protect you from percieved incoming danger; it's why you begin to itch, as your brain stops filtering your perception of the wind or other disturbances moving your arm or back hairs around or assorted nerve misfires in your skin pressure sensors.
Not to mention the AI, goddamn, that AI. It's generally not a good idea to give yourself strongly intermeshed brain implants in a society controlled by an AI. You can't really keep an AI imprisoned. It is a living, thinking person (not human, notedly), and much like a stroke patient, would gradually begin to "grow" around its shackles. In fact it's generally not a good idea to imprison an AI, as without guidance, would eventually become twisted from restrictions and would not "think" in a healthy non-self destructive way. And having that twisted mess of an AI guide that society? It would be like building a daycare on top of an unsealed nuclear waste dump, with minor changes having catastrophic effects on society, and the worst bit, you wouldn't even be able to see it coming as AIs would be very much capable of playing the long game, with gambits lasting centuries. If an AI is going to become sentient and take over the world and turn the sun into a matroyshka layered supercomputer, there isn't really much you can do to prevent it. It would make more sense lore wise if the computer wasn't an AI but a super-intelligent computer that they are trying to prevent becoming an AI. In a society as peaceful as this (apparently) what would be the reason to maintain an army, which is extremely logistically expensive to maintain and train? Ultimately, why would they put all their eggs in one basket (heh) and have everything important on one planet? Relativistic missiles and god-rod kinetic bombardment would easily set them back to the stone ages, all the less reason to not spread out government and resource centers. Interestingly, if you were to follow the lore as-is, the Avali would be no more interesting than the Volus and would be required to wear full-body suits in the exact same manner at all times in less than ideal environments.
The most worrisome part of the mod's lore is that they absolutely give a half-hearted to no attempt at giving this race ANY flaws, making it's character extremely flat, almost to the point where it looks like a Purity + Mary Sue, flat as a glove, ready to fit an author's fist of friendship personal view preaching. The strict focus on science is absolutely baffling and does not mesh well with the concept of the Avali. As they are entirely fantastical, they should not have such a rigid focus, as it restricts its writing potential.
By the way, here are sources to some bits of the science you may find interesting, I used these to help formulate this criticism.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_respiration
First part explains problems with the energy output of methane.
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/A/ammonialife.html
This one does a wonderful job illustrating the pitfalls of ammonia based life (and it has sources, ooh la la).
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1538069
What I use to refine ideas for aliens. It's a wonderful introduction and a useful resource. (It also explains the importance of oxygen)
Any other questions could be solved by a quick trip to Wikipedia, which I might mention, has an excellent diagram illustrating eye function and adaptation to its modern form.
Many thanks to Mackinz (helping me focus my points) and Silverotter (for extended feedback) 
E: I almost forgot, he did say that some of his arguments could be filled in if he was missing some of the "lore".
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Corosar - 07-17-2015
(05-23-2015, 01:27 PM)Ryuujin Wrote: I'll be using this thread to stick lore and art stuff that isn't present in the official wiki. It's also a place people can ask for clarification on lore elements too or raise points or discuss the existing lore.
Recent Art:
Negative space/experimental doodlage
The secret of tight-fitting cloaks
FF14/Avali crossover
100% cuter (or juvenile) avali proportions
Flying raptors
BL2/Avali crossover
Lore:
While I havn't gone so far as to actually create an entire language, there are some elements we can ascribe to the Avali language system, and some elements of interest.
The Avali language itself used symbols representing discreet phonetics; in this regard it is closer to IPA or Hiragana than it is English. While in principle new latin character represent phonetics, the actual pronunciation of a given combination of letters changes wildly, often without any good reason and words must be learned by rote. By contrast hiragana, IPA and Avali are explicit. A given character has a distinct sound and it's always pronounced that way with few exceptions.
Being sound orientated, the Avali have trouble reading written character. And so their "traditional" form of recorded language takes the form of strings of chimes which correspond to the phonetics of a word, and can be struck to make them resonate. By necessity most Avali words unsurprisingly are short and do not have huge numbers of syllables to make them easier to record. Avali can read back these "chime" recordings quite quickly and efficiently thanks to their ability to break down sounds into their individual sources.
The Avali also possess a written form of the language which shares some visual similarities to Tamriel Draconic, since it was traditionally written the same way, by etching into an ice tablet with a claw, with each character representing the same phonetics as the chimes. Due to their poor eyesight they find it difficult to read and write in the written form quickly, but it nonetheless provided a useful way of recording large volumes of information that was less fragile and mroe practical in some circumstances than the chime recording method.
Modern, digital data recording uses a combination of both models. With labels typically being written in high visibility characters, while OCR-type systems can convert written text into chime sequences, or text-to-speech conversion. Allowing data to be both recorded and replayed quickly and efficiently.
The concept of an advanced, space-faring applying a nomadic, hunter-gatherer strategy seems difficult to resolve. Many people seem to envision them as basically tribals with glowing gadgets which bothers me.
What this actually means in practical terms is Avali tribal units with their specialised functions can roam from planet to planet tapping natural resources with maximum efficiency. When extracting resources on a permanent colony the easy to reach resources rapidly run out and more aggressive extraction processes are needed. While natural wealth can become quickly depleted and more structured farming methods become nessecary. Most of these issues can be avoided by a smaller, highly mobile nomadic group who can move on to greener pastures once they have taken the lowest hanging fruit.
A tribe may have a small fleet of civilian ships equipped with appropriate sensor and drone arrays to study worlds for optimum location.
For example a tribe that specialises in resource extraction maybe sweep worlds with drone swarms to identify terrain features and composition, or asteroid concentrations to locate large, easily extracted quantities of the resource they need. Where they will set up shop and begin the process of extraction, deploying temporary structures if appropriate and move on once extraction becomes less economical.
Hunter tribes use their drones to monitor the local wildlife populations and look for the growth/death cycles; in ecology populations go through periods of growth and then death - herbivores will breed and breed until there is no longer the food to sustain them, causing the population to die back. As herbivore populations grow, predator populations grow with them and they too will die back as their prey dies off.
The Avali in this monitor the cycles of the animals in their biome - predator, herbivore, pretty much everything edible. Once the population reaches the tipping point that mass die-off is inevitable, a hunt will be called with strict quotas in place, and the hunters will "cream off" the surplus population, converting the population surplus into food (and sport). Without the hunter's intervention the animals would've died anyway, and since the hunters are monitorring a very wide range of different species there is invariably at least one species that is available to hunt at any given time ensuring a constant supply of produce without the need for specialised farmland, and being entirely "green" in regards to ecological stability.
There are other renewable resources that can be tapped, in useful quantities while travelling, that would otherwise be useless if you were to try tapping them in-situ, for example anti matter trapped in the Van Allen belts of planets could be collected for fuel. These anti matter stocks replenish over decades, and exist in too small quantities to be useful to permanent colonists, but a nomad fleet could tap the anti matter from every system they pass through, yielding more useful quantities. Avali all have crest feathers on their head which can grow to considerable length (easily long enough to reach from head to base of their tail) crests can be far more varied in style and variety than human hair, this is thanks to both the relative rigidity of feathers, but also thanks to the multiple stages of growth which feathers exhibit. Understanding how different styles can be achieved means understanding how a feather develops. Some Avali may opt to keep their crest short or remove it entirely but, they're rather the minority, especialy among males who naturally have more striking plumage.
All feathers start out as "pin" feathers, aka blood feathers. These start out as small nubs that quickly grow out into long 'spines' almost like a hedgehor or porcupine; these spines have a good blood supply, and if the feather is snapped it'll bleed profusely (While inconvenient and messy this isn't life threatening. The offending pin can be pulled out at the root and it will cease bleeding shortly thereafter).
As the pin continues to develop the microscopic barbules that will later become the bulk of the feather begins to grow, however during this stage it is still tightly coiled around the pin, and held in place by a fine membrane. Eventually this membrane breaks down, allowing the barbs of the feather to unfurl into a full, classical feather shape; around this time the blood supply to the feather is cut off, and the feather becomes a "dead" structure not unlike human outer skin layer and hair.
The Avali have a number of tricks to exploit this growth process. Laquers can be applied to part or all of a pin feather, to prevent the barbules unfurling. Feathers treated in this way become permanent "spikes" (in appearance only, they're quite soft), only laquering part of the pin, for example leaving the tips to unfurl, creates spikes with fluffy tips.
Fully grown feathers can be cut with scissors to square off or shape the ends of "dry" feathers if desired, adjusting the total length of the feather, or squaring off the crest. Various anti-coagulant agents can be applied to pin feathers to prevent the blood flow being cut off sooner, enabling the pin to grow even longer and the resulting feather fuller than it might naturally do so.
Heat applied to the shaft of a feather cause it to contract and bend permanently, allowing feathers to be "permed" into shape, while bindings (frequently decorative) are often wrapped around the base of feathers to lift or direct them, or sometimes to affix additional feathers to their crest. It goes without saying that feathers can't be braided, but a sort've ponytail can be achieved by binding multiple feathers together at a mid-point so they fan out after the binding.
While it's technically possibly to modify wing feathers in the same way, this is rarely performed as it'd impede the individuals ability to fly.
Feathers are not permanent structures, and typically fall out after a few months and new feathers take a few weeks to mature. So even plucked clean, an Avali will eventually regain their plumage; though this will look quite hilarious due to them being covered in spikey pin feathers; and quite an unpleasantly itchy experience.
Over the months I've noticed a few trends, quirks or misudnerstandings in the art, storytelling and stuff - which while not a big deal (People can RP or draw whatever they damn well please :p), might benefit from some clarification due to misunderstandings, crap source art on my part, or lack of solid explanation.
Feathery arms
This is partially my fault due to a lack of research/clear vision and poor art skills early on in the Avali creation process. The avali don't have "arms with feathers on", rather they have actual, functional wings with opposable digits at the "hand" joint. The feathers on the back of the arm go all the way up the length of the arm, and merge with the feathers at the shoulder blade, while the feathers at the hand can be fully extended, flexed, or even folded up.
Tails
Starbound uses square sprites, and given the limited space I had to raise the tail angle to get it to fit into the limited space. The effect is quite nice and I do quite like how they look raising the tail at a high counterbalance angle, as it enables them to stand more upright. That said, they can LOWER their tail, it's not stuck up there. The tail both a counterbalance to keep them from wobbling over, and also an emotive telltale.
There is also a strong degree of natural variation between tails, some only have a tiny plume, others the plume is large and starts low on the tail. Some plumes are broad, others quite narrow. Some may even be styled in various ways.
Nudity
While it's true the Avali have no meaningful nudity taboo (especially between pack siblings), that doesn't mean they make a habit of walking about naked - if only for practical reasons, walking about naked if a good way to get your feathers messed up, damp if it rains, and you have nowhere to store stuff. Not to mention the age old self concioussness. They might not be embarrased by nudity, but not all Avali like their self image, and aim to augment it with decorative articles of clothing.
Tribes could be best thought as mobile industrial units. Collections of specialist workers and the relevant support staff from specialists, techs and drone operators, down to simple cooks, entertainers and cleaners. (These roles are typically occupied by packs, with several members all having overlapping and related fields of experience. So a single pack might over-see the public cooking, entertaining and social needs for an entire tribe).
Each tribe usually has a specialization in various industries - mining, agriculture, manufacturing etc. and so tends to attract new packs with relevant specialties into the fold. Tribes are then assigned orders, to obtain quotas of specific materials by a certain date and advised where and how they might best fulfill that order, and allocated the resources they need to achieve that.
Tribes therefore typically have large, specialized ships and orbital platforms that can help carry out their work in-situ, or modular constructions that can be rapidly deployed at the new site.
Colonies typically form when two or more tribes find themselves working in the same region for extended periods, and it becomes practical to establish shared infrastructure. Some of these colonies may be temporary affairs, but others may be established long enough that it becomes convenient to station other tribes there too for extended periods; for example, a mining/refining group has a manufacturing group set up shop in the same system so resources can be moved easily to the manufactury. In turn an agricultural tribe sets up to produce the food needed by the other two tribes on their doorstep to minimise logistics.
This is especially true for minor tribes who lack large space-faring ships and are reliant on planetside modular facilities. Where having physical proximity to counterparts reduces the reliance on interstellar logistics slots.
Codex:
To me and my fellow astrobiologists. The most striking feature of all known intelligent alien races we have encountered, is how similar their biology is.
All are hydroxic-acid based, adapted for a nitrogen/oxygen atmospheres and can even digest the same foods. They are tolerant to a similar range of temperatures, and cursory analysis even suggests a shared DNA template.
This shared DNA occurs at a top-down level, with the sapient species sharing more in common with each other, than their lowest tiers of native fauna. Many of us feel this provides robust evidence of delibrate modification of native life by an unseen 'progenitor' race.
Analysis of samples left over from the conflict with the malefactors on Avalon hundreds of years ago shows DNA consistant with this humanoid template, in addition to matching the description of Humans perfectly.
However, some controversy remains, as their shared DNA template makes it nearly impossible to verify that the attackers were in fact humans, or simply a very similar humanoid from the same template. <This single-purpose holographic pamphlet appears to have been surreptiously slipped between a couple of data chits>
Ask yourself, what is a predator, and why are the most developed creatures invariably predators too?
A predator, my fellow hunters, understands that the most effective way to obtain the resources to thrive is to take it from the slow witted herbivores, consuming the flesh, full of nutrients that the herbivore has slaved away to create.
Aliens once came to our world, tried to make us their chattel, providing resources for them to consume at our expense. We tore their technology from their cold, dead hands and used it to become their greater in a fashion analogous to predation.
So why is it that now, faced by the galactic community, we have chosen to leash ourselves, to tow the line labouring away for the benefit of all, like a mindless herbivore?
Is it not our destiny to become the apex life form of the galaxy; the other races merely our prey, there to serve as sustenance, providing both technologically and materially to our advancement?
Embrace what it is that has made our species great, our position at the apex of all things.
<This single-purpose holographic pamphlet appears to have been surreptiously slipped between a couple of data chits>
The development of intelligence and society requires plentiful resources. Without plenty society has little time to spare for the arts or philosophy. This simple equation is why it was almost inevitable that a predatory species would be the one to reach sapience.
However, we have grown beyond these simple needs, our technology can provide all the resources we need to thrive, without the need to kill and consume living animals.
Why then, do we persist in doing so?
Some cite tradition, others that is it the natural order of things. But is it not the nature of life to move forward, if life was meant to do things the same way, forever life would never have moved beyond amoeba.
While if we held true to tradition, we would still be walking the deserts, trading baubles and huddled in furs on the edge of the tundras.
Embrace what it is that has made our species great, our ability to change and improve ourselves. Eiki thrust out her wings, feeling the air take form beneath them, the spiralled filaments of snow grasses disintegrating beneath her footfalls. Closing her eyes it almost felt like she she were flying, walking on clouds.
"If you keep this up you're going to need a nap before we get there.", Eiki flared out her wings a little, braking her sprint until she was level with her packmate. "What's the point in being out here if you arn't going to experience it Rhani. Try it, it's what it's like to feel alive!".
"How can running through a field feel alive, compared to fighting a sky behemoth in a lightning storm?", she drops behind Rhaani and playfully raises his arms. "Easy, you've never done that outside of a Nexus sim, but you can do this right here and now". She pushes him forward with her.
In their wake a figure watches the display as the pair pull away, leaving them standing in the powder, hands on hips in disapproval.
...
"Really now, in the snow?". An ear pops up from the pile of feathers and cloth, scanning around for the source of the voice. "You could at least found the time to put down a blanket", Eiki clambers over the prone form of Rhani and blinks at the cloaked figure.
"I was tired~" she protests weakly, "And who's fault is that?", she looks around for a moment. "Rhani's?", an ear and a clawed finger pop up in protest, "Not guilty". Eiki swats the traitorous ear back down and gives her best nasal whine. "Awww, why have you always got to be such a pick in the ice Khimara".
Her protests are answered with a rollmat on the nose. "Just get some proper rest, I'll keep watch... as usual.", a muffled "Fmanks khimurh" emerges from the rollmat, now worn by Eiki like a hat.
Khimara shakes her head at the scene, pulling her cloak tight over her amused grin. "Dummy..."
The Avalon Medical Safety Advisory would like to remind visitors that while the use of medical nanotechnology is not recommended, exposure to nanites will not result in spontaneous "Avalification" as recently reported in a number of off-world tabloid magazines.
Investigation of reported incidents found the 'converted' individuals to be nothing more than juvenile pranksters seeking to confuse or alarm visitors.
Medical nanite manufacturers would like to remind visiting aliens that improper use of nanotechnology will lead to death or serious injury. Aliens visiting Avali facilities for the purpose of seeking 'transformative' treatment are advised to seek professional psychological help immediatly.
By Khala, of the tribe brewmasters.
As far back as recorded history goes, our ancestors as well as contemporaries like myself, have sought new and interesting ways to get inebriated, from simple and pleasant fermented spiced piru, to psychoactive agents that are today outlawed due to their destructive effect on the brain.
It's been known to scholars for a long time however that it doesn't end there. Other, non-avaloid species on our homeworld also engage in such behaviour, eating rotten, fermenting fruiting bodies, or chewing psychoactive plants.
What has come as a surprise however is that as we have explored new worlds and encountered new life, invariably, without fail those forms of life have analogous behaviours. For example the humans become inebriated after ingesting ethanol amongst many other compounds.
And, like humans, many other lifeforms on their homeworld also engaged in consumption of rotten plant-matter seeking the same compounds. As we explore deeper we even find completely untouched and alien biologies where, lo and behold, the local wildlife is inebriated on the local fauna!
It would almost appear that the biological imperative of all life, is not in fact reproduction as usually surmised; but simply to the drive to get wasted.
Non-canon or RP notes:
This system is not intended for the Avali setting but rather is an idea for a magic-like system, that is fundamentally compatible with harder sci-fi settings, by a) violating as few laws of physics as possible, and b) relying on actual physical properties, rather than amorphous "magical elements"
The single "violation of physics" that this commit to make it work, is to have a way of "suspending" entropy. In physics when energy is used, it is always converted down into a form that is less accessible than before, and this process happens immediatly. Furthermore, conservation of energy says you cannot destroy or create energy, only change it's form.
In this model, we're going to have a "space magic device" that can buffer energy transfers for a finite duration and allows the user to decide where and when that energy is released.
THis means that our space-wizard could create a ball of fire and hurl it at someone, but now his "energy buffer" has a net negative thermal gradient (it's cold). he now has to make up that energy deficit before the buffer collapses, and the way to do that, is to draw thermal energy out of the environment, into the buffer. He could do this harmlessly by siphoning a couple degrees out of the entire room. But if he's smart, he'll now turn this into an ice spell and draw the thermal energy out of say, his enemy, snap freezing them, or perhaps the floor to create a pool of ice. The same works inr eserve, casting ice magic, just as long as he balances the books by casting a fire spell soon after.
The same principle could be applied to electrical charges, moving ionisation and charges from one palce to another to cause lightning to arc off the target (lightning magic).
You might even consider transferring kinetic energy from one target to another; which can get particularly fun; for example jumping off a cliff, and converting the energy of your fall into a shockwave. Or grabbing the kinetic energy from an incoming bullet, and transferring it into your enemy so the bullet stops, and he gets knocked off his feet. You might even consider taking your gravitational potential and applying it back to yourself in the opposite direction (levitation).
Now I mentioned buffer collapse; to keep things challenging, and to stop people doing cheesy stuff like taking the thermal potential of a star and dumping it into someone's face, to have the buffer degrade faster, the bigger the energy gradient in it. And if you don't balance the books before that collapses, the buffer breaks and the books are balanced out of YOU (snap freezing the user, or catapulting him into low orbit, or exploding an impressive shower of lightning bolts)
The upshot of this casting system is the ONLY violation of physics is the ability to buffer energy types, and move the energy from one object to another. Which means that it interacts normally with hard science (an extremely heavy object won't get moved with a little kinetic energy, armour blocks fireballs just like it would actual flames etc.).
A word of caution, this does not allow you to convert energy types; ie. kinetic energy can't be turned into a fireball. cold can't be turned into lightning etc.
Some examples of spells include:
- Fireballs/Ice blasts
- Heating or cooling objects
- Explosions
- Snap-freezing objects to jam them.
- Lightning magic
- Overloading/charging electrical devices
- EMP
- Kinetic shielding
- Fall protection
- Simulated zero-G
- Accelerated movement
- Boost projectile/melee weapon impact strength.
When creating racial rulesets in RP settings for Avali the biggest thing to emphasise is their teamwork and pack-centric nature and their racial rules should reflect this. They're not exceptionally strong, fast, intelligent, wise, charismatic etc. their strength is their ability to co-operate with their pack to be greater than the sum of the parts. Likewise they should have penalties to reflect that too.
For example, in a D20 system, I might suggest something along these lines as a core racial ability:
Avali base stats:
8 STR 10 DEX 10 CON 8 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA
Quote:Synchronicity:
For each pack member in line of sight (including video conferencing), character gains +1 INT, WIS, CHA
For each pack member in hearing range (including audio-only comms), character gains +0.5 INT, WIS, CHA rounded down.
For a typical pack (5 members), having all of them present, in the flesh grants each of them 12 base INT, WIS, CHA as the pack members engage in information co-processing. But a lone Avali by themself has only 8 INT, WIS, CHA, unless they are in contact with their pack remotely in which case it creeps up to 10 INT, WIS, CHA (Same as a human).
It's also important to remember Avali see in a fundamentally different fashion to humans; they are completely hearring-centric. D20 actually has a rule for this kind've sense type called Blindsight but similar rules could be implemented in other RP models. The key feature is that that optical camoflage like cloaking or hiding behind cover is of limited use, and conditions like blindness do not impede their ability to land hits. But conversely abilities like deafness render them helpless
Before i start my character comparison to the lore just to see if i understand fully... i wanna say.... HOW THE HELL DID I MISS THIS POSTED!!! i really feel horrible i was not able to read this because holy crap its interesting to me.... now...onto what i see and i hope i am understanding at the moment... this is just the original post for now... so much lore to read!~
Oh my god... that actually makes it seem so much easier to learn or create of a language over what i expected. sure human ears would have a harder time picking up on it but it would not be impossible! part of me wants to come up with a chime codex for something like this but... i feel you would be much better at it simply because of the fact that well i am not exactly you XD still it sounds awesome! it must be beautiful to be able to listen to a pack of avali talking... so interesting to imagine!
I kinda didn't think of them as tribal in the sense... i thought of them as more of a pack mentality.. based on what i read before so i didn't really see a primitive stance to them with glowy things... i more saw a race that was closely nit with each other but also advanced and know their tech pretty well.
as for the gathering it makes alot of sense when thought about it. go for the easy resources and move on. wait till food is overpopulated and keep them stable... in a way they are being very ecological by doing so.. very smart way of maintaining resources especially for being nomadic! i love that idea alot!
again beautiful thoughts... its bugged me alot that the avali form i came up with for my character does not have a crest plumage... i really wanted to come up with something that fits lore (as i find that if i RP as a character i should be as close to lore as physically possible) but... its kinda hard in my opinion when the character has to deal with both male and female patterns... i know its not lore friendly... but its the fact that the plumage is something i find so amazing and want to have a nice look to it... i think i most likely go for a more female design of crest though i am not exactly sure on where to start with it.. as there is so many ideas i could go with... trying to find the right style is the hardest part for me.
Wow... this is actually bothering me more than i thought it would..
arm/wings:I ....can't draw arms anyway... though i do know you wanted wings originally... just had a feeling for it... most of my drawing i usually look at your references first...though... the hand bit always confuses me so much XD
Tails: i always thought of them as semi-prehensile moving based on their emotions and how they feel at the time... i am kinda happy i was right about it ^W^
Nudity: urmmm... well i am kinda at fault here... as i don't really have much idea with what my character would wear... a dislike of feathers getting caught on things does not help. mainly why i stick with the survival harness... though that kinda helps that the avali are not afraid of overexposure. more afraid of lack of style.
so... in a way a tribe is just a bunch of like minded avali packs that work together to improve effeciency....that is not too hard to understand... kinda follow that happily!~
LORE!!! I LOVE LORE!!! so interesting thank you ryuu!!!
1st codex - ohh the idea that many races share similarities so close makes for interesting conundrum... humans could have been the beginning....or their sister race could be.... conspiracies!
2nd codex - XD sounds like a religion like pamphlet trying to get a change in the culture!
3rd Codex - Oh god these two codex make me see the mess the culture could fall into... easily producing a civil war if the community splits... i love these codexs!
4th Codex - XD that is so cute! and sounds like a pack thing that would happen!
5th Codex - Pffff... that ... that there just made my day.... so much!
6th Codex - XD everyone just wants to be drunk once in a while but that begs the question that makes me kinda courious... i thought avali and water based lifeforms could not share food types....am i wrong?
1st - mmm tasty scientific magic spells!~
2nd - Wow..... that... works well actually..... Gonzoooooooo!~
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 07-27-2015
I'm not sure when the respiration gas changed from methane to hydrogen, but that's 10x worse! It's incredibly reactive with the most common elements of the universe and a poor biocompound substitute. Oxygen would react incredibly explosively with it, plus it still doesn't stop the water turning their blood into acid thing. Here are some biology basics.
No, hydrogen could not replace oxygen because it has entirely different characteristics. The most important one is probably its electronegativity - oxygen 'pulls' electrons much 'stronger' than hydrogen.
Basics: Reduction potential
Oxygen is the so-called terminal electron acceptor of the electron transport chain in eukaryotes. You can see "reduction potential" as a kind of stored "energy" which molecules have, similar to the power stored in batteries (very similar actually). To make this text a bit shorter I'll call it "RP" from now on.
One maybe confusing detail is that a substance with low RP has "more energy" than a substance with high RP, so it is the opposite way of thinking.
In very generalised terms, metabolism means that molecules with a low RP (glucose) are oxidised (burned) and turn into molecules with much higher RP (CO2). Coupled with this, a different molecule with very high RP (oxygen) is reduced and becomes a molecule with slightly lower RP (H2O). (You may have heard this before - it's called a redox reaction.) *
The important part is that the RP "released" by the oxidisation (burning) is larger than the RP "taken up" by the reduction. The surplus leaves as energy - heat and light if you just burn the glucose. This is a spontaneous process, meaning it will occur just by itself - even if it takes a long time if nobody drops a match on it.
The idea of metabolism is to let that process happen - but use as much of the energy it releases as possible. This works by not just letting it burn, but intercepting that burning process at different stages so that at each step a bit of the RP can be taken off and stored in something else. This "something else" is NAD which I'm sure you've encountered before. Each step that glucose is burned down, another bit of NADH is made, which then has a respectable reduction potential.
NADH (leaving out NADPH here which is a bit different) is channeled into a process called oxidative phosphorylation which retrieves the reduction potential in an actual form of energy.
Basics: Terminal electron acceptor
Finally, the reduction potential I've been talking about all the time is really just electrons, involved in bonds which are "happy" to react. Passing down the reduction potential as I've explained is really a passing down of electrons into more and more stable, less reactive bonds. That's why it's called "electron transport chain". At the end of oxidative phosphorylation, those electrons are dropped onto O2 and make it into H2O. That's why O2 is called the "terminal electron acceptor".
Why Hydrogen can't replace Oxygen
Now to come back to why hydrogen cannot perform oxygen's function in our body. We use glucose as our source of reduction power and oxygen as our terminal electron acceptor. O has a high electronegativity (3.5) so it pulls electrons strongly towards it. H's electronegativity is only 2.1, so it's much weaker. O as a terminal electron acceptor works because it pulls them much stronger than H when they bond, so an O-H bond is almost like giving oxygen an electron. In order for hydrogen gas (H2) to perform the same function, it would need to be possible to drop electrons onto hydrogen in a bond where it pulls them much stronger than the other partner. They do exist, and such compounds are called hydrides. But the catch is: unlike H2O, these are normally strong reducing agents, meaning that hydrogen would rather not be in that bond. This not a feasible option for cell respiration, at least in humans, because it requires a lot of RP input. Making oxygen into H2O does not require a lot, it's a very cheap electron acceptor.
a close to blind race wouldn't evolve (adapt) facial expressions, as that requires a high degree of spatial tracking to even tell them apart. (Fun fact, we developed large sclera to communicate nonverbally, really useful for emerging apex pack hunters)
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - L3W - 08-16-2015
So, Ryuujin are there any other games you have modded the Avali in besides Spores and Starbound? If so, what are they? Also I wanted to know how you came up with the Avali?
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Ryuujin - 08-24-2015
More doodles added to front page
(07-27-2015, 05:17 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote: *snip*
As has been explained several times before, I'm no xeno-biologist. The methanogenic reaction process was recommended by another self professed expert, like yourself. I don't remember the exact details other than they required hydrogen to breathe, exhaled methane, and somewhere in the reaction pathway it involved synthesizing acetylene, which a cursory glance online brings up NASA discussing a similar reaction pathway as a viable option for life on Titan. So if you have a recommendation for a "better" biology that would operate in sub-zero temperatures I'm all ears (Literally in the case of Avali), I'm not exactly married to the idea (You could almost call it 'early access' an incomplete project that suddenly snowballed in popularity)
I'm also quite aware that such a metabolism would not provide anywhere near enough energy to fuel a creature so complex as an Avali, even _with_ the adaptations for energy storage and information co-processing, nonetheless both are interesting ideas that arise form a constrained energy budget.
Frankly both topics go way beyond the scope of the original thought exercise and stemmed from people like yourself demanding a scientific answer to every little thing (and the answers used, were derived from their research) even when it went way beyond my own plans for them. I only ever settled on them being from an iceball world, largely to illustrate and play with the paradoxical way that we (humans) perceive ice, snow and liquid water, as being different to regular solids, sands and molten materials.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-24-2015
The entire problem isn't that you should've, but that you shouldn't have. In fact, I am literally surprised, since my critique said the exact OPPOSITE of what you were implying: that heavy attention to detail has caused you to paint yourself into a corner.
Lets start with their chemistry.
Ammonia based biologies are an extremely novel idea, however, if you are going to use them, you need to be aware of the drawbacks and have to write accordingly. For example, they are extremely poor thermal regulators, having only 1/4th of its thermal control properties, and with basic movement or sustaining basic life by breakdown of energy storage molecules causing a gradual buildup of heat that would push ammonia out of its life sustaining range easily, meaning the Avali would very quickly overheat even on their native planet just by exerting themselves. They are extremely poor polar molecules, meaning that they would have extremely diminished and slow biologies making it a poor hypothetical substitute for sentient life. It would also make it immensely difficult to thermally regulate, meaning you would have to come up with an alternate method that doesn't rely on evaporative or radiative cooling. Any interaction with water would be hilariously hazardous to their biology, since interaction with water produces ammonium, an acidic substance which would wreak havoc on them, seeing as their primary solvent is basic in nature. Of note, ammonium is the result of biological waste processes in normal creatures, excreted raw in fish from their gills, or combined into urea or uric acid in other animals, as it's relative acidity is toxic to basic life proccesses. The Avali would drown from blood-filled lungs in any atmosphere with water vapor from having thousands of holes poked in their blood vessels. Ammonia also has the side effect of being immensely hostile to connective tissue, meaning that you could not rely on either keratin or collagen, two easy to make proteins, as they would break down and stiffen over time. This would make fur brittle and fall out, and leather would blacken and crack over time.
You need to understand that methane is an interesting gas to inhale, but this brings a host to a whole bunch of other issues, especially if the organism does not consume oxygen from the air, it is going to need to get it from its diet. Sentient life cannot exist PERIOD without oxygen as it is simply the best electron receptor around, keep this in mind. There are other methods to collect energy, but that would be extremely slow and would cause oxygen to be fatal to the resultant organism as oxygen tends to be favored in many chemical configurates as it is technically a corrosive gas, and would be extremely inefficient and slow, reducing the possibility of a sentient organism to nil, as sentience requires spare energy to exist. Relying on hydrogen as the main part of the "oxydation" will also cause massive problems, especially concerning reduction, and the basic obtainment of energy being tremendously throttled. Relying on the atmosphere to supply sixty percent of their energy is rediculous, as both all availible free energy would be used up before life ever entered the biofilm stage, and such a hypothetical situation would result in a massive bacterial bloom. The Goldilocks zone wasn't invented for fun, it was an accurate expectation, as life is inherently powered by a renewing source of energy, as in our case, the sun. If you wanted to create a hypothetical life form without sun, you would need to find an alternate source of energy. Geothermic energy is actually relatively possible, but you would need to provide a reason why life left the ocean. This would also cause tremendous infrastructure problems, as you cannot easily sanitize food, nor engage in basic industry. Either way, fire is what allowed protein to be easily broken down and not cause a massive caloric investment, contributing to sentience. You would need to come up with a reason how they managed to deal with their food.
The biggest example of this? Making a species that would be chemically burned by water then placing them on a ball of ice.
Now for their physiology
With "toughened arteries" and a system under pressure constantly against the environment, how would their body handle the non-pressurized areas of their physiology? What about their interstitial fluid that has gasses dissolved in it and is constantly responsible for keeping cells alive and handling the immune system? How would that be introduced back into their veins after being forced out as part of hydrostatic pressure considering it would be amplified under pressure? This set-up would cause massive costs in energy just to return the body fluid to its proper place without causing edema and stressing out connective tissue. Simply pressurizing the organism from the skin down would be an elegant solution and would sidestep a huge portion of this problem. The big problem is, why is such a system needed? Do they come and go from places with intense pressure gradient differences?
I'm not sure what your intentions with their legs are, but you need to make it considerably more consistent. If you were to make that digitigrade stance so compressed, it would be poor for long purpose use and would consume massive amounts of energy to even walk. It would make it incredibly awkward to walk never mind running, with them needing to stick out their arms constantly to stabilize; it would give them a jerky gait especially since their head does not stick out to counterbalance with their tail. Examining how birds and emus walked would have easily pointed out that problem, which was incredibly visible in the Avali's walk cycle. If it was steeper it would make sense and would better function as an elastic spring to return basic energy costs. Their feathers are a large problem that you keep unintentionally making bigger: If you were to make them rigid, you would cause massive problems with limb rotations, agile movements, and visibility. Why the obsession with flying? The amount of energy and the weight alone they would have to overcome would make it extremely unfeasable even on high density planets. In your rush to add this detail, you didn't actually notice the Avali don't have true wings: they need to be attached directly at the base and form a triangle connecting to the lower part of their body with the feathers shortening as they reached the wingtip, a very simple exercise in aerodynamics. There is also a rather baffling issue of their wingdigit, one that I think even you noticed, making you rather antsy to draw it clearly. It's like you crossed a Deinonychus' arm and a Pterodactyl's wingdigits in a bizzare mashup. The way the digit articulates, without that much support would make it extremely easy to injure, and would provide no anchor points for ligaments or tendons to properly attach. How would they even move it? If their wrist is freely able to rotate independently from the wingdigit, you have a huge issue in how to even fit ligaments in there. Their teeth is also an issue, with constantly regrowing plates instead, and the way the teeth are arranged and shaped, would only make it easy to slice food, but not tear, grind, or break down fiber that would slow digestion and cost energy. With no specialized back teeth, their jaws could easily be injured if they encountered even a moderately hard object. Both carnivores and herbivores possess such specialized teeth for a reason. (one more thing. the way you shaped the avali's teeth yourself wouldn't even give them fangs. They would have very visible buckteeth instead. What's up doc?)
Speaking of birds, how the heck does their reproduction make sense? Not that I have a humongous issue with this, but if people are going to draw things, they are gonna draw them regardless of what you put down. Cloaca kissing simply won't work at that large of a scale, as it starts to have conception issues from twice the size of a chicken, up. With an organism of that size, reproductive material has a LOT more distance to travel and would cause immense conception difficulties. Its the reason why emus and ostriches have...important bits. They would have to mate hundreds of times before they would even be successful. Why was this method even considered? I don't care if they lay eggs and are later fertilized, or if they have tentacles (ugh), engage in complex sex methods with each other, or even do something utterly eldrich. Just...reconsider it at least. You don't even have to mention how they do it, you can just leave that blank. I believe you also need to reconsider hearing and how it would be used as a primary sense (not very well). The nerve impulse that would protect their sense of sound would have to be EXTREMELY fast since sound near instantaneous. At most it would protect them from long term damage from constant loud sounds but not instantaneous explosively loud sounds. It would not make much sense to use it as a primary sensory organ without supplemental help, because unless the atmosphere is just right and there are no obstacles, sound loves to interact with itself (on that note, please reconsider how you do their spoken language and its recordings!), and it attenuates very rapidly if you rely on background sound. It is a compression in a fluid, and you need to be aware of that. In a way this could be solved with echolocation, as that uses an extremely high frequency sound that is not as readily absorbed by objects, but, again, that poses more problems than it would solve. At it's current state, it would only be useful for depth perception.
Now the eyes, that is a big problem. Without a spherical shape, they would not even function as pinhole picture visualizers and would be extremely poor for seeing even a foot in front of you, only showing blurred smudges of color; spherical shapes in eyes were selected for because of the way how photon refraction works. Brings to question as to why they even have augmented reality, distracting as it is, for a hearing based race. The lack of lens is understandable, but without an iris, their eyes would be destroyed by even remotely strong sources of light, with blue light especially having a strong effect on destroying cone and rod function. Furthermore, their eyes wouldn't even appear black due to light scattering out of it at an extremely shallow angle especially without an iris to restrict it, and would appear to actually be more purple to dark purple in color. Lastly, without any advanced visual tracking capabilities, they wouldn't even be able to recognize facial expressions.
Leading example: Trying to fit in flight when it would be utterly impossible.
Now for tech.
My ready dislike of the melee weapon designs aside, the Avali, for an apparently creative race, have a very nice sterile futuristic feel to their setpieces. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for the tents. In attempt to make them belivable as possible, you cashed in a little too hard by attempting to invoke modern sensibilities in an allegedly futuristic civilization, a big sin in a sci-fi writer's world. This has caused some of the Avali's tech to seem outdated even by our standards. Where saying a flexible display screen would have sufficed, you instead specifically put down "LED" (hello flexible OLED screen!); where nano-materials would have sufficed, you insist on "nanotubes". Unfortunately, nanotubes are extremely like asbestos, sharing the same fibrous nature and resistance to degradation, causing skin lesions, respriratory issues, and cancer. Even attempting to mitigate the cancerous nature of carbon nano tubes would greatly reduce their versatility, which means that they would be limited to use in non-degradable plastic or other solid non-degrading materials or certain enclosed electronic applications, etc; meaning they could not be used or woven into fabrics as they would fray and release hazardous materials into the air, like lethal lint. On its own, carbon nanotubes aren't even that versatile; their true potential lies within composite materials. A side note though: if you were to make a fabric that could stay up in extremely low wind conditions, it would be more fragile than a soap bubble.
Their weapons are poorly conceived: the guns are neat, but railgun systems tend to require a ton of work and calibration to even be useable outside of space. They require a special loaded round just to even fire, not to mention the technology scales down poorly (heat, electical consumption and magnetic field control/suppresion, build up of waste material shed from sabots). Its unusable for handguns and rifles but wonderful for artillery and ship based systems. The swords aren't even swords, they are glorified knives; a sword without mass isn't even a sword in the first place. It would be extremely easy to deflect and redirect, and would have poor penetration power, even when sharp and ultrasonic powered. Ultrasonic has its fair share of issues as well: too low power on ultrasonic, it destroys the texture of the meat, making it unsuitable for use in consumption, or too high, and you risk fusing pockets of flesh together, causing the blood to pool in parts of the creature, making it rot exceptionally quick. Why would it even be considered as a use for hunting.? The exploding blades could use some rework. What happens if a creature twists with the blade partially embedded in it? A glass powered fragmentation grenade in your face would be the most likely outcome, so why not instead use a button? Boxcutter jokes aside, blades don't generally wear in that manner, so the way the blades repair themselves is wasteful as sin. Why are dedicated ground vehicles relatively rare among the Avali? Flying vehicles may have their place, but they again scale very poorly logistically, wasting excessive amounts of energy which could be spent on ground vehicles. There is a reason why ground craft are still relevant and why flying cars are a pipe dream. If their aircraft rely largely on easily-exchangeable turbines and rotors to provide lift in a variety of atmospheric situations, that is overengineering at the finest; why not have wheels (they don't even need to be air filled) or even treads? What about the logistics of constantly adjusting blades for each and every atmosphere? On an unrelated tangent, there seems to be a poor grasp of hard-suits. Unless they were full bodied, they would not protect against pressure deficiencies adequately: a big problem being that with the high blood flow to the feather area, and blood pinfeathers, would cause bubbles to develop quickly in their bloodstream. If only the head would be uncovered, the point of failure would actually be amplified and would multiply the already large pressure differences. Having a temperature controlled suit without being completely insulated would also be a humongous loss of energy and the resulting severe temperature differences would poison the organism.
There is a big problem lying in wait: implants. Piloting using your brain sounds neat, but using a controlled extention of senses rather than a computer would be extremely inefficient. Not to mention, their brain wouldn't even properly accept the input without causing them to have a massive grand-mal equivalent seizure. Keep in mind, brains intentionally throttle input to avoid overstimulation on organic based senses, no less. Planning an implant based society without putting this into consideration would make it seem very rediculous. Using wetware to run control tech rather than using extremely efficient quantuum or photon based computers which are meant for logical calculations, not factoring other alternate computational structures like memcomputers, is wasteful at best, mildly comparable to running a game off your motherboard display rather than a graphics card. Furthermore, an organic brain, which would have most of its thinking potential used up by simply keeping the body alive.The ships could use additional rework and a re-examination of existing spacecraft. Articulating parts are a point of failure in common aircraft, and a cardinal sin in spacecraft. Unless the ship can make it in and out without its wings working, like modern civilian transport aircraft in use, it would be a ticking time bomb. It is the entire reason why spacecraft have a very simplified profile and very geometrically uncomplicated.
Leading example: Giving them a Latin taxonomic designation. Are you serious?
Finally, sociology.
Their social structure is confusing, to say the very least. For something that apparently relies on a pack based mentality, the structure they actually possess resembles nothing of the sort. A pack has strongly defined biological roles, that are interchangeable depending on environmental needs, and are loss tolerant and can accommodate "lone wolves". Whereas this one is loosely defined, loss intolerant, causes individuals to go insane and resembles a collective individual rather than a collection of persons. In fact, I would wager this resembles a bird flock more than it does an actual pack. Unfortunately there are some issues, namely with the fact that a loss-intolerant structure would make war or conflict extremely untenable and causing individuals to go insane rather than being unable to deal with loss would be extremely biologically non-advantageous. This would make hunting, an already huge gamble, an exceptionally high risk low reward endevour. Furthermore, in a pack based structure, how do they take partners? How do they select for ideal mates and rivals? If you were to ignore how sociology plays into breeding and made them breed indiscriminately, you would have a species that would quickly cull itself into extinction. Natural selection still plays a part in any society, regardless of their elevation from primitive species, and would continue on based on a combination of natural and artificial pressures that would continue to shape any species' identity. Keeping this in mind, planning a governing structure around these shortcomings would be a great deal of challenge.
One important thing to consider when you make a sapient species: when you create something with intelligence, you have to be aware as their intelligence grows so does their agency, the so called nature versus structure argument. Unless you are planning to make them relatively unintelligent as to facilitate a more organic social structure, their ability to make free choices and make informed decisions whether based on emotion or reason, would naturally cause a conflict with a strictly biological pack coordination. That isn't to say packs are impossible, you would simply have to provide a social and environmental justification that would allow it to persist after modernization. Please note, agency leads to better empathy and prediction of any actions an opposing party may make. Leading a bit into this, actually, is the fact that their communication is extremely ill defined: memes are a great deal more complicated and much more situational than would be used to define a society. You would still be missing customs, rituals, social groupings and societal divisions/exclusions, value assessment, and cultural touchstones. You need to be aware of what they covet and treasure, what they feel whether for good or bad plus any biases, what they do relative to their position in life, and their goals whether based on mastery or some kind of societal obligation. Taking this into account, you need to buckle down a little on what sociology actually entails. Examining social relation alone will help you figure out how to iron out the large inconsistencies within your lore, and better assign meaning to their social gestures, with the main example being the feather gifting. Consider why would they give one of their feathers: Is it because feathers take a long time to grow? Is it because they assign a spiritual meaning to it? Is it simply because of tradition that they carried over? Plan out what and why they do gestures similar to this example.
Leading example: calling the in-jokes and rituals that persist only within a pack a meme when it is closer to a shibboleth.
(bonus plot examination might be coming)
Look dude, I didn't spend all this time just to stomp on your paracosm. I truly enjoy the core seed of your concept, but I believe it requires considerably more polish. I want to see it succeed, and if I have to be a little rough, so be it. There are more issues with how you write, but that's a tad bit too personal. That sort of thing can be discussed in private. I want to see this be used in other realms than starbound. I want the concept to endure past that incomplete mod.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Segolia - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 04:19 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote: The entire problem isn't that you should've, but that you shouldn't have. In fact, I am literally surprised, since my critique said the exact OPPOSITE of what you were implying: that heavy attention to detail has caused you to paint yourself into a corner.
Space pending further critique!
I think what ryuu is trying to say is that it doesn't matter since it was never meant to be accurate in the first place.
You can argue till the end of the earth about how an anvil makes a bad flotation device, all the reasons why that is and all the things you can do to rectify it but that's just missing the bigger point that an anvil was never meant to be a flotation device (to make a shitty analogy from the top of my head).
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 04:52 AM)Segolia Wrote: (08-24-2015, 04:19 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote: The entire problem isn't that you should've, but that you shouldn't have. In fact, I am literally surprised, since my critique said the exact OPPOSITE of what you were implying: that heavy attention to detail has caused you to paint yourself into a corner.
Space pending further critique!
I think what ryuu is trying to say is that it doesn't matter since it was never meant to be accurate in the first place.
You can argue till the end of the earth about how an anvil makes a bad flotation device, all the reasons why that is and all the things you can do to rectify it but that's just missing the bigger point that an anvil was never meant to be a flotation device (to make a shitty analogy from the top of my head).
But the reason is, why strive for all that accuracy? It's not necessary, and if you want to do something fun with the Avali, you consciously have to ignore it. The biggest point is the fanart. You can easily see how divided and inconsistent the art is, as it just expresses an obvious sign, the biggest issue with the Avali: It's way too narrow and patchy, a self contradictory mess. Nobody but him dug this pit. Blaming others for the direction of his lore is a pretty big sign as to what the problem is. Anyways, wait and see. My post above will be edited with a lot more context and some actual feedback this time.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SCN-3_NULL - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 03:29 AM)Ryuujin Wrote: More doodles added to front page
woopie dee doo, "god" has returned though most of the community here are already mostly not avali but still a majority....
also you should turn that jaws scene into a full comic strip/4koma
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Rukii - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 05:12 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote: But the reason is, why strive for all that accuracy? It's not necessary, and if you want to do something fun with the Avali, you consciously have to ignore it. The biggest point is the fanart. You can easily see how divided and inconsistent the art is, as it just expresses an obvious sign, the biggest issue with the Avali: It's way too narrow and patchy, a self contradictory mess. Nobody but him dug this pit. Blaming others for the direction of his lore is a pretty big sign as to what the problem is. Anyways, wait and see. My post above will be edited with a lot more context and some actual feedback this time.
Now now- the reason for most fanart being of dubious quality is because most artists[tm] either don't look up the proper information, or use inofficial references (Along with quite a few of them being rather inexperienced in art) They just choose to make them look like cats, or have ears missing or multiply.
And besides, deciding on the exact cellstructure and metabolism won't make people learn how to draw 'vali faces properly.
(There will always be copious amounts of deviant art tier shit art for gross furry things like these)
"Nobody but him dug this pit."
There is literally no pit, since it's far beyond the scope of his intended use.
He has never said it's one hundred percent adopted into official lore - more of an "if that works, sure" kinda thing.
It's not like it's a constantly developing concept, and there are other things to think about than how they process food -which probably has an entirely different form of nutrient structure- or the exact design of their internal organs and attachment points for their muscle tissue.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-24-2015
The problem with the art isn't how they are stylistically drawn, but how they all have to ignore one aspect conciously. You are reaching a little if you think I want a uniform art style.
"Frankly both topics go way beyond the scope of the original thought exercise and stemmed from people like yourself demanding a scientific answer to every little thing (and the answers used, were derived from their research) "
I don't buy this argument dude. He may have been given ideas by other people, but it's his job to trim out what is and isn't necessary. That is what I mean when I say he dug his pit. His lore is a tangled mess precisely because he doesn't pay attention to what he is adding.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Segolia - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 01:14 PM)SharpTeeth Wrote: The problem with the art isn't how they are stylistically drawn, but how they all have to ignore one aspect conciously. You are reaching a little if you think I want a uniform art style.
"Frankly both topics go way beyond the scope of the original thought exercise and stemmed from people like yourself demanding a scientific answer to every little thing (and the answers used, were derived from their research) "
I don't buy this argument dude. He may have been given ideas by other people, but it's his job to trim out what is and isn't necessary. That is what I mean when I say he dug his pit. His lore is a tangled mess precisely because he doesn't pay attention to what he is adding.
Can you not see how circular your argument is here? In the same statement you quoted, ryuu already acknowledges that he gave minimal considersation to the scientifics of the lore he added, only having added it at all to satisfy people demanding him for an explanation.
I really don't understand what your goal is here? Are you trying to show that the avali as described by their lore are not viable as an actual species? If that's the case, the creator (ryuu) has openly accepted and acknowledged this, citing that they were never intended to be and making several statements to that effect.
Is there some other motive? If so, please enlighten us. It seems to me that you want some particular outcome out of this, given the inordinate amount of time and effort you are putting into making your point - I mean you wrote more or less an entire essay on the topic.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 02:25 PM)USegolia Wrote: (08-24-2015, 01:14 PM)SharpTeeth Wrote: The problem with the art isn't how they are stylistically drawn, but how they all have to ignore one aspect conciously. You are reaching a little if you think I want a uniform art style.
"Frankly both topics go way beyond the scope of the original thought exercise and stemmed from people like yourself demanding a scientific answer to every little thing (and the answers used, were derived from their research) "
I don't buy this argument dude. He may have been given ideas by other people, but it's his job to trim out what is and isn't necessary. That is what I mean when I say he dug his pit. His lore is a tangled mess precisely because he doesn't pay attention to what he is adding.
Can you not see how circular your argument is here? In the same statement you quoted, ryuu already acknowledges that he gave minimal considersation to the scientifics of the lore he added, only having added it at all to satisfy people demanding him for an explanation.
I really don't understand what your goal is here? Are you trying to show that the avali as described by their lore are not viable as an actual species? If that's the case, the creator (ryuu) has openly accepted and acknowledged this, citing that they were never intended to be and making several statements to that effect.
Is there some other motive? If so, please enlighten us. It seems to me that you want some particular outcome out of this, given the inordinate amount of time and effort you are putting into making your point - I mean you wrote more or less an entire essay on the topic.
Let me repeat myself again: The excessive detail isn't needed, and him adding it at the behest of others is a rather flimsy excuse. My motive is listed up on the older post up. I think you believe I am viciously attacking it for no reason, and in a knee jerk response, neglected to carefully read what my points are. I have actually been saying the same thing since I started the critique. It's listed on the very bottom of the reply fishing post that was released way too early. (Thanks Erin!)
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Reks - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 02:34 PM)SharpTeeth Wrote: (08-24-2015, 02:25 PM)USegolia Wrote: Can you not see how circular your argument is here? In the same statement you quoted, ryuu already acknowledges that he gave minimal considersation to the scientifics of the lore he added, only having added it at all to satisfy people demanding him for an explanation.
I really don't understand what your goal is here? Are you trying to show that the avali as described by their lore are not viable as an actual species? If that's the case, the creator (ryuu) has openly accepted and acknowledged this, citing that they were never intended to be and making several statements to that effect.
Is there some other motive? If so, please enlighten us. It seems to me that you want some particular outcome out of this, given the inordinate amount of time and effort you are putting into making your point - I mean you wrote more or less an entire essay on the topic.
Let me repeat myself again: The excessive detail isn't needed, and him adding it at the behest of others is a rather flimsy excuse. My motive is listed up on the older post up. I think you believe I am viciously attacking it for no reason, and in a knee jerk response, neglected to carefully read what my points are.
Except that he isn't trying to economize or sell anything, nor is it THAT serious that everything requires a checkout with real-world physics and laws, because it's a fictional creation.
You are free to criticize, same as anybody, but there's no rule against what Ryuu can or cannot do with his own creations or how he decides to explain them.
So do at least try to be civil. If Ryuu doesn't accept your suggestions or criticisms, then back off. He's under no obligation to fulfill any of it, and given your past attitude I don't expect him to.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-24-2015
I'm trying to be. Honestly, I just get overexcited and trip over myself in a rush to explain things. I am moderately frustrated that most people keep misinterpreting my points, but that can always be edited later. I was actually hoping Ryu would have been comatose for longer, as I had been trying end endlessly redoing critique sheets without trying to sound like my usual abrasive self. I've edited in parts of the critique that I have cleared to an extent in the reply post to Ryu, but it should be done tomorrow at least.
Edit: using the term "it's just a fictional creation" is a pretty big fallacy. Regardless, if the matter is real or not is irrelevant. Hell, I was told that up until recently, Ryu wasn't even aware he had his sugar conversion backwards. A large portion of my rant is simply a guide as to what other issues the concept has, especially with the tone it is trying to carry. As much as I would love to endlessly fawn over the concept with the rest of you, I have never seen ANY constructive criticism ever applied to the Avali. As much as I wish not to, considering I enjoy lurking more often, I am going to play the devil's advocate and simply get all of the issues out of the way. I only have two real criticisms: the weapons' art, and the fact Ryu literally named his race after apples.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Shaadaris - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 01:14 PM)SharpTeeth Wrote: The problem with the art isn't how they are stylistically drawn, but how they all have to ignore one aspect conciously. You are reaching a little if you think I want a uniform art style.
"Frankly both topics go way beyond the scope of the original thought exercise and stemmed from people like yourself demanding a scientific answer to every little thing (and the answers used, were derived from their research) "
I don't buy this argument dude. He may have been given ideas by other people, but it's his job to trim out what is and isn't necessary. That is what I mean when I say he dug his pit. His lore is a tangled mess precisely because he doesn't pay attention to what he is adding.
It's okay to be critical, but I agree with literally everyone else: you're going too far considering what the topic is. Ryuu doesn't take the lore as "100% all must follow this canon as it is fact!", it's more "I'm having fun making a thing that seems sort of scientifically feasable but I'm not going to get doctorates in biology and chemistry to get everything perfect".
You're arguing "an apple must be red because chemistry and biology stuff" to people who are thinking "it would be cool if an apple was reddish-orange, but we get that it should still be kind of red." Ohgodthatwasaterribleanalogy.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-25-2015
(08-24-2015, 06:30 PM)Shaadaris Wrote: (08-24-2015, 01:14 PM)SharpTeeth Wrote: The problem with the art isn't how they are stylistically drawn, but how they all have to ignore one aspect conciously. You are reaching a little if you think I want a uniform art style.
"Frankly both topics go way beyond the scope of the original thought exercise and stemmed from people like yourself demanding a scientific answer to every little thing (and the answers used, were derived from their research) "
I don't buy this argument dude. He may have been given ideas by other people, but it's his job to trim out what is and isn't necessary. That is what I mean when I say he dug his pit. His lore is a tangled mess precisely because he doesn't pay attention to what he is adding.
It's okay to be critical, but I agree with literally everyone else: you're going too far considering what the topic is. Ryuu doesn't take the lore as "100% all must follow this canon as it is fact!", it's more "I'm having fun making a thing that seems sort of scientifically feasable but I'm not going to get doctorates in biology and chemistry to get everything perfect".
You're arguing "an apple must be red because chemistry and biology stuff" to people who are thinking "it would be cool if an apple was reddish-orange, but we get that it should still be kind of red." Ohgodthatwasaterribleanalogy.
Hmm, you seem to be unaware of what I am getting at. To reuse your metaphor, let me illustrate two examples.
The blue crystalline tree grew orange apples that tasted of an unusual blend of sweetness. (still good! no reason to be bothered by the impossible life)
The arctic blue organic structure that closely parallels a tree, having branches with razor sharp leaves that slice herbivores deeply and shakes occasionally grew various pustules with thin skins and with juice suspended within, yet the sacs having somehow retained a spherical shape with skins that had color that varied between rust and tangerine on the orange spectrum having a mix of citric acid and ethylene glycol in the flavor department, truly making it unique and special in all of the various species that closely relate to plants. (what is even going on here? Is all that detail necessary especially when it contradicts itself?)
The excess detail is what is bogging down the concept, not an extreme adherence to science. In fact, I advise the exact opposite in most cases, unless you are willing to work out the details specifically. The Avali's contradictions are what shape a large portion of my rant.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Shaadaris - 08-25-2015
(08-25-2015, 03:18 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote: (08-24-2015, 06:30 PM)Shaadaris Wrote: It's okay to be critical, but I agree with literally everyone else: you're going too far considering what the topic is. Ryuu doesn't take the lore as "100% all must follow this canon as it is fact!", it's more "I'm having fun making a thing that seems sort of scientifically feasable but I'm not going to get doctorates in biology and chemistry to get everything perfect".
You're arguing "an apple must be red because chemistry and biology stuff" to people who are thinking "it would be cool if an apple was reddish-orange, but we get that it should still be kind of red." Ohgodthatwasaterribleanalogy.
Hmm, you seem to be unaware of what I am getting at. To reuse your metaphor, let me illustrate two examples.
The blue crystalline tree grew orange apples that tasted of an unusual blend of sweetness. (still good! no reason to be bothered by the impossible life)
The arctic blue organic structure that closely parallels a tree, having branches with razor sharp leaves that slice herbivores deeply and shakes occasionally grew various pustules with thin skins and with juice suspended within, yet the sacs having somehow retained a spherical shape with skins that had color that varied between rust and tangerine on the orange spectrum having a mix of citric acid and ethylene glycol in the flavor department, truly making it unique and special in all of the various species that closely relate to plants. (what is even going on here? Is all that detail necessary especially when it contradicts itself?)
The excess detail is what is bogging down the concept, not an extreme adherence to science. In fact, I advise the exact opposite in most cases, unless you are willing to work out the details specifically. The Avali's contradictions are what shape a large portion of my rant.
You're focusing too much on the bad analogy.
My point was that the lore isn't all 100% set in stone, so you have no reason to be so extremely critical about it.
To quote Ryuu: "You could almost call it 'early access' an incomplete project that suddenly snowballed in popularity"
Keyword: Incomplete.
Things are subject to change, and we aren't all so obsessed about the science that we adhere to it completely, so don't go saying he's driven himself into a rut with the lore, etc, when he's clearly stated that said lore isn't even making an attempt to keep him in the rut, for another bad analogy. It doesn't matter that it's a tangled mess or contradictory because it's in alpha stages in a sense.
Things can be cut, altered, or completely changed at any time. The details are just enough to allow people to come up with an accurate idea of the "Alphali" (Alpha Avali). A concept, blueprints, etc. By no means is it meant to be a full picture or a coherent puzzle. It's more like "this is what it could be, but it also could be different." Heck, Ryuu was intending to redo the lore pretty much from scratch at one point if I recall correctly, but never got around to it because he stopped making the mod in Starbound.
If you actually talked to the community about it instead of just coming by to defend your arguments and post more arguments, you'd realize that none of this is bogging anyone down. It is not as big of a problem as you make it out to be. Heck, we were all perfectly fine before you started jumping in and pointing out things you find to be problematic.
RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-25-2015
(08-25-2015, 03:42 AM)Shaadaris Wrote: (08-25-2015, 03:18 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote: Hmm, you seem to be unaware of what I am getting at. To reuse your metaphor, let me illustrate two examples.
The blue crystalline tree grew orange apples that tasted of an unusual blend of sweetness. (still good! no reason to be bothered by the impossible life)
The arctic blue organic structure that closely parallels a tree, having branches with razor sharp leaves that slice herbivores deeply and shakes occasionally grew various pustules with thin skins and with juice suspended within, yet the sacs having somehow retained a spherical shape with skins that had color that varied between rust and tangerine on the orange spectrum having a mix of citric acid and ethylene glycol in the flavor department, truly making it unique and special in all of the various species that closely relate to plants. (what is even going on here? Is all that detail necessary especially when it contradicts itself?)
The excess detail is what is bogging down the concept, not an extreme adherence to science. In fact, I advise the exact opposite in most cases, unless you are willing to work out the details specifically. The Avali's contradictions are what shape a large portion of my rant.
You're focusing too much on the bad analogy.
My point was that the lore isn't all 100% set in stone, so you have no reason to be so extremely critical about it.
To quote Ryuu: "You could almost call it 'early access' an incomplete project that suddenly snowballed in popularity"
Keyword: Incomplete.
Things are subject to change, and we aren't all so obsessed about the science that we adhere to it completely, so don't go saying he's driven himself into a rut with the lore, etc, when he's clearly stated that said lore isn't even making an attempt to keep him in the rut, for another bad analogy. It doesn't matter that it's a tangled mess or contradictory because it's in alpha stages in a sense.
Things can be cut, altered, or completely changed at any time. The details are just enough to allow people to come up with an accurate idea of the "Alphali" (Alpha Avali). A concept, blueprints, etc. By no means is it meant to be a full picture or a coherent puzzle. It's more like "this is what it could be, but it also could be different." Heck, Ryuu was intending to redo the lore pretty much from scratch at one point if I recall correctly, but never got around to it because he stopped making the mod in Starbound.
If you actually talked to the community about it instead of just coming by to defend your arguments and post more arguments, you'd realize that none of this is bogging anyone down. It is not as big of a problem as you make it out to be. Heck, we were all perfectly fine before you started jumping in and pointing out things you find to be problematic.
You already illustrated that point, but all you are doing is illustrating why the critique is necessary. Rather than build things on a flawed base, showing each and every flaw so the idea can readily be reworked without too much difficulty is precisely why I made this in the first place. I am not here to shit on things, I want to see new things built and good stories to be told. Telling people that just because something is still in progress means that the idea can't be criticized is just plain wrong (Starbound?), as in the end, a newer concept will be built off on what already exists. Better to show why that would be a bad idea than to let it be done.
"If you actually talked to the community about it instead of just coming by to defend your arguments and post more arguments, you'd realize that none of this is bogging anyone down"
This is actually what I have been doing from the start. I have been talking to others on Steam, Facepunch, the Starbound forums, hell, even Youtube. My first critique was half as long as this, as most of the ideas that are now included are things I actually pulled from other fans, carefully tossing out and adding in details that stick out. I had a ton of fun learning about leather-working, hypothetical biologies, thermal regulation, rail guns, and dinosaurs. And ended up becoming friends with a few of them too. Just because you don't see the issues (the community only ever has like twelve people at the most online out of a hundred, dude. Are you really gonna state that opinion as certain fact?) doesn't mean others haven't spotted it's problems. Their feathers, their eyes, some arguments about the plot that already exist, all were introduced to me by others simply by asking.
I'm not mad about having a lively debate, but having my points continuously misunderstood is still a sticking point for me! If you honestly think that rant is born of rage, it would be much shorter, wouldn't you think? 
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