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Ryu's lore and art dump. - Printable Version

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RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Shaadaris - 08-25-2015

(08-25-2015, 03:57 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote:
(08-25-2015, 03:42 AM)Shaadaris Wrote: You're focusing too much on the bad analogy.
My point was that the lore isn't all 100% set in stone, so you have no reason to be so extremely critical about it.
To quote Ryuu: "You could almost call it 'early access' an incomplete project that suddenly snowballed in popularity"
Keyword: Incomplete.
Things are subject to change, and we aren't all so obsessed about the science that we adhere to it completely, so don't go saying he's driven himself into a rut with the lore, etc, when he's clearly stated that said lore isn't even making an attempt to keep him in the rut, for another bad analogy. It doesn't matter that it's a tangled mess or contradictory because it's in alpha stages in a sense.
Things can be cut, altered, or completely changed at any time. The details are just enough to allow people to come up with an accurate idea of the "Alphali" (Alpha Avali). A concept, blueprints, etc. By no means is it meant to be a full picture or a coherent puzzle. It's more like "this is what it could be, but it also could be different." Heck, Ryuu was intending to redo the lore pretty much from scratch at one point if I recall correctly, but never got around to it because he stopped making the mod in Starbound.

If you actually talked to the community about it instead of just coming by to defend your arguments and post more arguments, you'd realize that none of this is bogging anyone down. It is not as big of a problem as you make it out to be. Heck, we were all perfectly fine before you started jumping in and pointing out things you find to be problematic.
 You already illustrated that point, but all you are doing is illustrating why the critique is necessary. Rather than build things on a flawed base, showing each and every flaw so the idea can readily be reworked without too much difficulty is precisely why I made this in the first place. I am not here to shit on things, I want to see new things built and good stories to be told. Telling people that just because something is still in progress means that the idea can't be criticized is just plain wrong (Starbound?), as in the end, a newer concept will be built off  on what already exists. Better to show why that would be a bad idea than to let it be done.

"If you actually talked to the community about it instead of just coming by to defend your arguments and post more arguments, you'd realize that none of this is bogging anyone down"
This is actually what I have been doing from the start. I have been talking to others on Steam, Facepunch, the Starbound forums, hell, even Youtube. My first critique was half as long as this, as most of the ideas that are now included are things I actually pulled from other fans, carefully tossing out and adding in details that stick out.  I had a ton of fun learning about leather-working, hypothetical biologies, thermal regulation, rail guns, and dinosaurs. And ended up becoming friends with a few of them too. Just because you don't see the issues (the community only ever has like twelve people at the most online out of a hundred, dude. Are you really gonna state that opinion as certain fact?) doesn't mean others haven't spotted it's problems. Their feathers, their eyes, some arguments about the plot that already exist, all were introduced to me by others simply by asking.
I'm not mad about having a lively debate, but having my points continuously misunderstood is still a sticking point for me! If you honestly think that rant is born of rage, it would be much shorter, wouldn't you think? Smile

I'm sick of arguing because obviously neither of our points are getting through to eachother.
I suppose I just don't understand the point you're trying to make, even after you've directly stated it numerous times.

If you want to keep posting these here, go ahead, but judging from the reactions so far, I don't think a lot of the community here (all twelve of us) will care to listen. In fact, I'd reccommend trying to get a straight line of communication to Ryuu, since he doesn't check in here a lot.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-25-2015

I'm not arguing, and the fact you think we are is a problem. I want to debate what can and can't work, but as far as I can see, the only thing we discussed was a misunderstanding between something I had repeatedly stated.. Plus, 12 out of a hundred at a time dude, with about at least fifty thirty cycling through every month. I'm pointing out the fact that you are implying you speak for absolutely every fan, a kind of a big logical failing.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Rukii - 08-25-2015

(08-25-2015, 05:57 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote: I'm not arguing, and the fact you think we are is a problem. I want to debate what can and can't work, but as far as I can see, the only thing we discussed was a misunderstanding between something I had repeatedly stated.. Plus, 12 out of a hundred at a time dude, with about at least fifty thirty cycling through every month. I'm pointing out the fact that you are implying you speak for absolutely every fan, a kind of a big logical failing.

(08-25-2015, 03:57 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote: This is actually what I have been doing from the start. I have been talking to others on Steam, Facepunch, the Starbound forums, hell, even Youtube. My first critique was half as long as this, as most of the ideas that are now included are things I actually pulled from other fans, carefully tossing out and adding in details that stick out.  I had a ton of fun learning about leather-working, hypothetical biologies, thermal regulation, rail guns, and dinosaurs. And ended up becoming friends with a few of them too. Just because you don't see the issues (the community only ever has like twelve people at the most online out of a hundred, dude. Are you really gonna state that opinion as certain fact?) doesn't mean others haven't spotted it's problems. Their feathers, their eyes, some arguments about the plot that already exist, all were introduced to me by others simply by asking.
I'm not mad about having a lively debate, but having my points continuously misunderstood is still a sticking point for me! If you honestly think that rant is born of rage, it would be much shorter, wouldn't you think? Smile



RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-25-2015

I'm not sure how "others" morphs into "all". Especially when I use it as an example to say the opinion is not entirely unanimous.
Also, I finished the critique, mostly.




RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Battle Bee - 08-25-2015

[Image: xSP1tnU.png]
EDIT: why the fuck did i post this here o Ao


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Ryuujin - 08-25-2015

Sharp, you do have some good points which I'm taking into consideration for future wiki/lore updates (Trimming a lot of superfluous and dodgey science fluff, particularly in the field of biology which is an area as I've said before, was tacked on due to people constantly asking questions about it). However you really need to dial back the aggression a bit, lot of criticizing people and lore but not a lot of usable feedback to work on.

Anyway with that in mind if you were to take biology related stuff right back to the roots, what's your thoughts on depth, speaking as someone who is actually more open to criticise things.

It's established they're a iceball world species and I do like the idea of a burst metabolism, these are aspects that are important to the species. With that said. People inevitably ask "What do they breathe?", "Are they carbon based?", "Are they water based?", which seem fair enough questions, compared to "Do they utilise ATP?", "What is the exact metabolic process behind why they breathe X", which is far more specific and easily disprovable, how far down do you think answers should reasonably go within the lore. And do you have any thoughts on the correct answer for those, considering the criteria they must meet (ie. they can't be water based or they'd freeze to death), answers that don't go too far but will satisfy anyone summarily poking at them.

On the tech side of things I intend to keep them relatively confined to "Tommorow's tech", ie. no anti-gravity, no energy shields, no FTL-sensors, in fact the only major break from reality is a means to create einstein-rosen bridges (Gotta have some FTL option there, as much as I'd love to play with colony ships and colonies separated by time as well as space, it would close off too many options). Again this is a defining element of the race's design. This was a deliberate decision since the intention was to drill down into potential uses and pitfalls of tommorow's technology (Networking, robotics, augmentation). Far too many sci-fi stories instead look way out into a future filled with phlebotinium for convenience, without exploring the consequences, and ignoring that often the problem they face could be solved with technology they presumably stopped using 300 years earlier (Star Trek being the absolute worst offender in this regard while Schlock mercenary does a wonderful job of toeing a line between science, fiction, explanation and exploration of consequeces)

I also plan to chop out some of the background lore, since some of that is straight up deceptive or wrong anyway and I think yields more confusion than anything. I have a 'problem' in this regard that in the course of exploring the story through an in-game medium would reveal some important, unspoken aspects of their culture and society which'd be spoilers to simply post up front, but again people want answers to questions now and thus have been fed the "official" line that is actually covering up the full story.


Again, I havn't actually been responsible for a great deal of the wiki's maintenance for a long time and it's long overdue an official editorial, often being assembled and re-assembled by people reading lore snippets on forums or from Skype chats.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 08-26-2015

(08-25-2015, 11:03 PM)Ryuujin Wrote: Sharp, you do have some good points which I'm taking into consideration for future wiki/lore updates (Trimming a lot of superfluous and dodgey science fluff, particularly in the field of biology which is an area as I've said before, was tacked on due to people constantly asking questions about it). However you really need to dial back the aggression a bit, lot of criticizing people and lore but not a lot of usable feedback to work on.

Anyway with that in mind if you were to take biology related stuff right back to the roots, what's your thoughts on depth, speaking as someone who is actually more open to criticise things.

It's established they're a iceball world species and I do like the idea of a burst metabolism, these are aspects that are important to the species. With that said. People inevitably ask "What do they breathe?", "Are they carbon based?", "Are they water based?", which seem fair enough questions, compared to "Do they utilise ATP?", "What is the exact metabolic process behind why they breathe X", which is far more specific and easily disprovable, how far down do you think answers should reasonably go within the lore. And do you have any thoughts on the correct answer for those, considering the criteria they must meet (ie. they can't be water based or they'd freeze to death), answers that don't go too far but will satisfy anyone summarily poking at them.

On the tech side of things I intend to keep them relatively confined to "Tommorow's tech", ie. no anti-gravity, no energy shields, no FTL-sensors, in fact the only major break from reality is a means to create einstein-rosen bridges (Gotta have some FTL option there, as much as I'd love to play with colony ships and colonies separated by time as well as space, it would close off too many options). Again this is a defining element of the race's design. This was a deliberate decision since the intention was to drill down into potential uses and pitfalls of tommorow's technology (Networking, robotics, augmentation). Far too many sci-fi stories instead look way out into a future filled with phlebotinium for convenience, without exploring the consequences, and ignoring that often the problem they face could be solved with technology they presumably stopped using 300 years earlier (Star Trek being the absolute worst offender in this regard while Schlock mercenary does a wonderful job of toeing a line between science, fiction, explanation and exploration of consequeces)

I also plan to chop out some of the background lore, since some of that is straight up deceptive or wrong anyway and I think yields more confusion than anything. I have a 'problem' in this regard that in the course of exploring the story through an in-game medium would reveal some important, unspoken aspects of their culture and society which'd be spoilers to simply post up front, but again people want answers to questions now and thus have been fed the "official" line that is actually covering up the full story.


Again, I havn't actually been responsible for a great deal of the wiki's maintenance for a long time and it's long overdue an official editorial, often being assembled and re-assembled by people reading lore snippets on forums or from Skype chats.
Have you decided yet then? Whether you want some thing fantastical or grounded is actually a pretty big problem. You want to lay down a very big bed of science and over-define everything, but unless you are willing to research like crazy and over-plan everything, it's not going to work out. When someone starts looking at your concept with a great big magnifying glass, you are going to eventually have to answer "it's a mystery ™" when they start getting to the specifics of your science. A large portion of my criticism intentionally avoids going into detail as to what you can improve for one reason only: I don't want to edit the direction of the lore. I wanted you to reconsider it from the very beginning. At most I can give hints here or there to avoid causing massive problems, but any story specifics are something I want to have no part in.
"It's established they're a iceball world species and I do like the idea of a burst metabolism, these are aspects that are important to the species"
Having a species be based on an icy planet is actually viable if you know how to plan out their ecology. That being said, clinging hard to those ideas could be your undoing. For example, having them be outside the Goldilocks's zone would cause massive problems on how the planetary energy would be replenished. So if you were to base energy collection on both solar and geothermal activity, it would make a great deal of relative sense, but it would have to be weighted towards solar, to provide an excuse as to why life left the ocean. You can have them based on water without too much of a hassle, actually. There are species that remain active in extremely low temperatures, some that can be entirely frozen and thawed out after a big freeze and organic variants of antifreeze do exist. You just have to find a way to lower their freezing point after all. You could even use the danger of them actually freezing to death, you know, to establish why they have such tight social structures, (I actually advise you to look into how trips into dangerously cold areas work out, as the amount of teamwork needed is incredible, and the specific reasons for building special shelters are woven right into it). If you aren't somehow able to plan out an exclusively water based biology, consider a hybrid solvent solution, as it would easily sidestep the chemical burns caused by water, both due to ammonium (although ammonium only arises when water is added to ammonia and not the other way around) and the fact that water is a much stronger polar force. I do advise you to reconsider the burst metabolism, though, with one simple question. If they have to store amounts of energy to be able to do anything strenuous, what is the point of sentience? Sentience requires a fantastically large energy input just to remain viable, and any versions of their species that would not adapt to sentience would easily out-compete them since they would have considerably more energy to "hunt". Intelligence emerges due to a runaway positive feedback loop from both excess energy and improved senses. In fact, improved senses always are going to evolve before intelligence emerges, as what lead to mankind's incredible ascension to the top of the food-chain was our unparalleled sense of touch (we can literally feel things down to the nanoscale!) and fantastic amounts of co-ordination (both physical and social). That being said, you can do a pseudo-burst metabolism, similar to some terrestrial creatures. You just have to work on that baseline energy level.

This entire time, I was only ever made angry by one thing alone. Most of the posts here were born of confusion due to some misunderstandings of my intent, albeit with some of my usual abrasiveness. But your statement that you do not control the direction of your lore was something that genuinely infuriated me: it was a massive excuse. I have edited worse things and have had authors own up to their mistakes much quicker without resorting to deflection. If you honestly want to make something coherent, then take responsibility for the direction of your lore, even if you don't feel you are responsible for all the details. You alone get to decide the direction of your lore (but there will always be people ready to shit on it on a moments notice), and you must decide what goes in and what gets cut out.


Also, the very first critique was something I didn't even post here. I had several files saved that I was endlessly reworking, and she chose the oldest and most reply-baiting version. Argh.

Also, don't be afraid to make your tech fantastical. We are beginning to experiment with amazing amounts of metamaterials, so planning science without going too deep into specifics won't actually be that hard if you know what you are doing. Unless you are going for a similar effect for 'zeerust', planning too closely to tomorrow causes some problems, after all, if this tech was truly on the cusp of tomorrow, why wouldn't we be tossing money at it? The answer is that it isn't. There still is plenty to learn about the universe. As of right now, we are experimenting with exotic particles in an unparalleled manner compared to twenty, no, ten years ago! We even are beginning to learn how to control gravity to a mild degree, and each and every step takes us closer to a future that is more bizarre than anything we could imagine. Don't be afraid to make the future crazy, because it sure as hell is going to be much different around here in less than a hundred years.


A Counterpoint (And Brief Return) - J. Mourne - 09-03-2015

Alright, Alright:

It’s been forever since I’ve been back here, but my attention was brought back to these forums again which are (for better or worse) at least on topic once more. Your criticism, SharpTeeth, is quite thorough, and frankly makes quite a number of very good points, some of which I personally agree with. However, there is an underlying problem with this analysis, namely that through focusing almost exclusively upon the mechanics of the race, you have missed the purpose of Ryuujin’s use of said mechanics.

To quickly point out what this analysis fails to take into account: intention, plausibility, and the willing suspension of disbelief. What I’m getting at is that you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

Have you looked at the Avali? Not trying to figure them out, simply looked at them? They are an incredibly attractive race: well designed, a blend of the familiar with the alien and strange; a cute appearance contrasted with a surprisingly predatory and cunning nature. You look at them from a standpoint of pure science and see a confusing mishmash.

Look at them from the perspective of a storyteller. They seem familiar, and so make us comfortable (this is the true function of the Avali eyes – without eyes they would be rather disturbing to the average person – the technobabble is an excuse for them to exist, not the reason for it, in the grand tradition of all science fiction since the era of the original Star Trek). They subvert clichés, and so intrigue us. If we really wanted what we read to be entirely plausible, with no room for doubt at all, we would read biographies. And yet we aren’t, we’re here, concerned with a fictional race. In order to create a setting that is different enough from our familiar experience to be interesting, we must diverge from the rules that we are familiar. And yet at some level, these rules must remain approximately real, or we are simply confused. More on this concept later.

The difference between fantasy and science fiction isn’t a hard division of impossibility and possibility, but one of plausibility. Would you begrudge science fiction faster-than-light travel? Very few people would, and for a very simple reason. It tends to make science fiction stories rather dull. We are not particularly interested in what happened to the 133rd generation of humans midway through their voyage on a sub-light colony ship.

Suffice to say, we permit flights of fantasy in our settings and reading because it delights us – just as the Avali delight us with the potential for fantastic stories that we can nonetheless tell ourselves have at least a chance of being possible. Perhaps you have a lower tolerance for such tale-telling, but to chalk these inaccuracies up to insufficient research or knowledge on Ryuujin’s part instead reveals a lack of appreciation for the building blocks of story on your part.

A Quick Note:

To begin with, I would like to venture a point of agreement; any human-created system, no matter how thorough, will always contain flaws. Especially in a network as far-ranging as an entire hypothetical intelligent species, complete with some form of biology, ecology, tools, mores, and politics. This is not to excuse sloppy mistakes; but to simply point out that while the project approaches ‘perfect’ accuracy, the increased complexity of the system increases exponentially to a degree that eventually becomes unreasonable to invent.

To put it plainly: any fictional system will eventually have to rely on approximations to familiar objects. Assuming we can all agree on this basic premise, we can proceed to the points you raise.

Specific Concerns:


You raise very good points about ammonia biology, but I must echo what has been already pointed out – the ammonia biology was only ever an experiment and a placeholder that slipped into canon more through lack of any concrete alternative than through intentional design. I do take exception to the final line however. “The biggest example of this? Making a species that would be chemically burned by water then placing them on a ball of ice.” Imagine the temerity of evolution placing humans – creatures that suffer tremendous thermal burns when they contact magma – on a planet made entirely of frozen rock. It’s almost enough to make you think the universe was created by an inexperienced trickster god, isn’t it.

Perhaps that doesn’t make my point clear enough, so I’ll state it more politely. Anything can kill an organism if it’s significantly outside the environment it was designed to survive in. Humans breathe oxygen but pure oxygen kills us. Humans are mostly water, but we can drown. What we have here is the first application of the approximation of detail. It is not an unreasonable assumption that the Avali have all the requisite developments to survive on their own homeworld. It is unreasonable however, to demand that all of these developments be listed, because Ryuujin is a single person with a finite amount of time to describe a potentially infinite amount of detail.

Your suggestions of alternate biologies have quite a bit of merit, and I think would've made an excellent post on their own. Following a valid point such as that with rather - shall we say 'less major' points - only hurt your argument and made you sound needlessly hostile.

I did find your point about Avali hearing, particularly their protective nerve impulses, positively amusing. You said: “At most it [protective nerve impulses] would protect them from long term damage from constant loud sounds but not instantaneous explosively loud sounds.” Ignoring the in-itself hilarious concept of the Avali evolving in an environment in which “explosively loud sounds” are so commonplace as to require adaptation; have you attempted staring directly into the sun recently? Let alone a laser pointer? We have practical, real-world experience with sensory organs that can suffer permanent damage from functioning in their intended environment, let alone the intensity of artificial stimuli. The Avali auditory 'twitch' impulse is comparable to blinking - which is hardly a cure for blindness, but still hardly a trivial reflex or one worthy of criticism (you think sound is fast relative to nerve impulses, try bright light!).

Your points on railguns are spot-on (discounting the fact that a swap to gauss carbines instead would immediately solve almost all the issues associated with internal damage). Your points on melee weapons, again are spot-on, but you make them out to be a much larger issue than they truly are. This is a distortion that has carried over from Starbound, in which melee combat is a significant component. A huge variety of impractical melee weapons was a necessity of gameplay, not a proper piece of lore (melee weapons, by the by, intended for hunting large, unarmored prey, not warfare).

Your comments on cybernetics, I find, are again an example of begrudging Ryuujin the right to describe function rather than specifics. Approximation of detail! It is reasonable that the Avali use a control format that actually works without inflicting crippling seizures. Neurosurgeons are a rare breed, and I think expecting Ryuujin to look into such a specialized field so far removed from the experience of the common audience member that to worry about it is a waste of a finite amount of time.

I agree quite extensively with your points on sociology!

I do think you over-estimate the degree of mental anguish inflicted by loss of a pack (most err in the other direction, so that’s a refreshing change), and you seem additionally to have read ‘polyamory’ as ‘indiscriminate mating’. I think you’ll find the intended interpretation was rather that the Avali lack human sexual taboos, not that they don’t have a courtship protocol (in fact, canonically males have brighter colors than the females specifically for this reason). Approximation of detail! It seems a reasonable assumption that clearly the Avali seek fit mates, because other wise the race would have died out. This is not a flaw, this is an area that hasn't been described. Otherwise I agree with your critique here, and have in fact voiced similar concerns in the past.

Final Words:

If you can watch Star Trek without puking, then you should definitely be able to appreciate the Avali even with minor problems (they’re not perfect, but I think you can agree they’re much closer to it than most other stories). If you can’t watch Star Trek without feeling violently ill, then you have my sympathy, because you are missing out on a lot of flavor in the world of science fiction.

I admire the amount of time you have spent on this. You are clearly a highly dedicated researcher and familiar with a broad spectrum of sciences.

But this, the Avali, this is not science. This is a work of fiction, one that draws and borrows from science because that is what its audience and creator finds enjoyable. I have seen Ryuujin’s work long enough to be fully confident in his understanding of the science of what he’s doing. What he recognizes though, and perhaps has a greater tolerance for than yourself, is the role of story. And sometimes telling the story you want takes precedence over telling it with accurate science.

You encourage Ryuujin to not be ashamed of the fantastic, while seemingly refusing to accept that perhaps the fantastic elements he has are exactly the ones he wants.

With all respect.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - UnamusedAvali - 09-03-2015

I think Sharpteeth just died of common sense.


RE: A Counterpoint (And Brief Return) - Marxon - 09-03-2015

(09-03-2015, 03:29 AM)J. Mourne Wrote: Snip
You have no idea how good it is to see you.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - UnamusedAvali - 09-03-2015

(09-03-2015, 04:49 AM)Marxon Wrote:
(09-03-2015, 03:29 AM)J. Mourne Wrote: Snip
You have no idea how good it is to see you.
I know, this guy's a fucking legend.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Hetuni - 09-03-2015

(09-03-2015, 03:29 AM)J. Mourne Wrote: Snip Snoopity snip
I really think you got the point across quite well, it was also great to read this.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 09-03-2015

My turn! I've been waiting for this for a long time! I love to argue even inane shit, so prepare yourself.
"Have you looked at the Avali? Not trying to figure them out, simply looked at them? They are an incredibly attractive race: well designed, a blend of the familiar with the alien and strange; a cute appearance contrasted with a surprisingly predatory and cunning nature. You look at them from a standpoint of pure science and see a confusing mishmash."
No, actually, the problem is from a storyteller point of view, a large portion of these details are simply unnecessary. King, Vonnegut, Asimov, and even Butcher all warn against excessive detail for many reasons, like digging yourself into a narrative hole or the fact that any detail that simply does not play a part in explaining what they are is irrelevant and hurts the concept more than it helps. The huge problem with this is that they are a confusing mishmash for two reasons: A- Their very lore appears to have been crammed together, as their conception wasn't carefully planned. From a visible point of view, they have the tech of one race and the biology of another slammed together, leading to gems such as giving a blind race visually based augmentation! B- The variance between the plausability between the facts Ryu put up veers sharply from very plausible to outright fictitious imaginations, for one very simple reason, well two actually.* He can't decide if he wants something fantastical or grounded and it shows!
"The difference between fantasy and science fiction isn’t a hard division of impossibility and possibility, but one of plausibility. Would you begrudge science fiction faster-than-light travel? Very few people would, and for a very simple reason. It tends to make science fiction stories rather dull. We are not particularly interested in what happened to the 133rd generation of humans midway through their voyage on a sub-light colony ship."
Again, you seem to be equating my argument as an offense against its science, rather than a critical look at how the excessive detail causes the concept to stumble. On that note, Ryu himself seems to be having trouble making things fictitious when it would suit the concept, like trying to toss out technobabble like "Einstein-Rosen bridge" when wormhole would have sufficed or the fact that he could have just simply made up a special ftl exception like every other work of fiction. He is trying too hard to make them grounded amidst all the fantasy he cobbled together.
" I do take exception to the final line however. “The biggest example of this? Making a species that would be chemically burned by water then placing them on a ball of ice.” Imagine the temerity of evolution placing humans – creatures that suffer tremendous thermal burns when they contact magma – on a planet made entirely of frozen rock. It’s almost enough to make you think the universe was created by an inexperienced trickster god, isn’t it."
There are very large problems with this point and I'll show you why:
  1. An ammonia based biology has very large problems with water itself. For very similar reasons to why ammonia itself would be harmful to terrestrial life, water would cause even more damage to ammonia based biology. Due to the fact that water is a much stronger polar force, along with the chemical burns, it would interfere with their biology on a horrific scale, especially if the water works its way inside, and shut down their sugar processes, leading to a very painful death.
  2. Putting an ammonia based biology on a planet made of ICE (water), with constant snowstorms (water), and plentiful humidity in the air (water) is a very bad idea. It's like putting humanity on a planet with acid as the floor, air, and water. Even if ice is frozen, high school chemical safety should have shown you that even solid reagents are very hazardous.
  3. Are you equating biological incompatibility to environmental hazards? Talk about false equivalency. At most, water would prevent ammonia based life from arising if it exists in even small quantities. A hybrid solvent solution is still very much possible.
" It is not an unreasonable assumption that the Avali have all the requisite developments to survive on their own homeworld. It is unreasonable however, to demand that all of these developments be listed, because Ryuujin is a single person with a finite amount of time to describe a potentially infinite amount of detail."
Then don't bother listing so much detail. You don't have to justify anything fictitious, but Ryu seems to be having a hard time grasping this.*
"I did find your point about Avali hearing, particularly their protective nerve impulses, positively amusing. You said: “At most it [protective nerve impulses] would protect them from long term damage from constant loud sounds but not instantaneous explosively loud sounds.”"
I noted this because Ryu thinks twitch nerve impulses mean total immunity. Also, sound senses are a hundred times more sensitive than optical, due to the way they are structured.
" Ignoring the in-itself hilarious concept of the Avali evolving in an environment in which “explosively loud sounds” are so commonplace as to require adaptation; "
Ice shelf cracking. On a planet totally covered in ice. Or the low intense grumbling that exists in coastal ice shelves. That is all.
"(melee weapons, by the by, intended for hunting large, unarmored prey, not warfare)."
Medieval history by the by disagrees with you. Did you see how we invented the fuller? Pikes? Armor piercing non-edged blades? As soon as we raised a rock, we were killing each other, and mother nature wouldn't have it any other way.
"I do think you over-estimate the degree of mental anguish inflicted by loss of a pack"
Check the wiki? I had to do a double take when I first saw it.
"Your comments on cybernetics, I find, are again an example of begrudging Ryuujin the right to describe function rather than specifics"
Cybernetics are a bit of a touchy subject, you have to understand how they truly work before you begin to write with them, otherwise it ends up looking rather silly when you end up feeding optical data to a creature that can't handle it.
"But this, the Avali, this is not science. This is a work of fiction, one that draws and borrows from science because that is what its audience and creator finds enjoyable. I have seen Ryuujin’s work long enough to be fully confident in his understanding of the science of what he’s doing. What he recognizes though, and perhaps has a greater tolerance for than yourself, is the role of story. And sometimes telling the story you want takes precedence over telling it with accurate science."
A point I agree with, but again, Ryu needs to stop trying force reality to bend to his will. Storytelling needs both a balance of plausibility and fantasy. Science and magic, so to speak, and again, most of the science he puts in has absolutely no basis in reality and needs to be either rethought or simply handwaved. On that note, handwaving: its pretty clear Ryu is uncomfortable with doing it in the first place, but the first thing every author needs to learn is how to bullshit things away. I never cared how the Avali worked, but rather how the details factor into the main story. If you could render the Avali into one sentence what would it be? From that point, you need to slowly work details that are relevant to the core concept and not toss in fluff, as this clogs up any narrative point you are trying to make. It's very clear he wants to make a cautionary tale of the dangers of technology, but there is piles and piles of unnecessary detail, plus there is no true reason to really care about the Avali. On a very objective standpoint, you could replace the Avali with anything else cute with the same lore and still make the exact same race, and that is the problem. What are the Avali? Who are they? What do they do? It's true basing reality in a story helps enable structure but he needs to be more fantastical in his writing.
One last thing. The eyes are actually something you should reconsider. He wrote them with facial expressions, writing, and hunting capabilities, and those all require sight. No exceptions. I wouldn't have a problem if they were blind as long as it was handwaved or justified in some manner.

"You encourage Ryuujin to not be ashamed of the fantastic, while seemingly refusing to accept that perhaps the fantastic elements he has are exactly the ones he wants."
Dodgy To quote myself (ugh):
"I believe your problem is, that on some level, you want them to be real. That's okay. It's okay to have some wish fulfillment and self indulgence, but you need to be aware of this and embrace it or overcome it, rather than trying to marry reality and fantasy together. If you aren't careful and don't know where to draw the line, it becomes hard to tell what details are needed and what is just excessive fluff."


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Segolia - 09-03-2015

Wow, the avali aren't suited to hard sci-fi storytelling? In fact, they're so unfit for it that one might say it was never their intended purpose.

Nah, that would be silly, you should get on that ryuu Wink


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - UnamusedAvali - 09-03-2015

Specifically Sharpteeth, the problems you raise are limited to humans
The Avali are three things
1. Not real
2. Not humans
3. Fucking cool why should you need to deconstruct everything about them?


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 09-03-2015

Yup! And all that excess fluff means nothing. You gotta trim out what isn't necessary otherwise what you got is a mess. With the Avali being so overly convulted because its trying to be so hard-scifi it needs to have more handwaved away than to simply try to explain everything away.

"Frankly both topics go way beyond the scope of the original thought exercise and stemmed from people like yourself demanding a scientific answer to every little thing (and the answers used, were derived from their research) even when it went way beyond my own plans for them."
This line alone was really telling. No author is ever truly forced to squeeze out details from nothing.
The fact that they have a wiki even though they don't have a true story attached and can easily be simplified to one page is also a major red flag.

(I know that was sarcasm, but it still serves my point!)
(09-03-2015, 11:46 PM)UnamusedAvali Wrote: Specifically Sharpteeth, the problems you raise are limited to humans
The Avali are three things
1. Not real
2. Not humans
3. Fucking cool why should you need to deconstruct everything about them?
I don't really buy the "fiction is fiction so no need to criticize it" argument, as plenty of people make a living doing exactly this. I have no problem pointing out the flaws in a concept because I want to see it improve in the first place. If you hold something truly sacred as to not be able to point out its flaws, what is the point? All you have got is a stagnant concept, one that Ryu promised to rewrite more than a year ago, but hasn't because some part of him doesn't want to start anew and make something much more fleshed out. Even if others might not see it, I want Ryu to look upon his own work, his flaws, and be able to confidently take steps towards a better story. If no one else points these problems out, none of them would be fixed in the first place. You have to break eggs to make a cake, after all.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Segolia - 09-03-2015

(09-03-2015, 11:47 PM)SharpTeeth Wrote: With the Avali being so overly convulted because its trying to be so hard-scifi it needs to have more handwaved away than to simply try to explain everything away.
That's the problem, they're not trying to be hard sci fi.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Cole4110 - 09-04-2015

Now i have to say while Your drive is somewhat impressive and at the very least determined.
Though honestly, im fairly sure not many of us care what you have to say or what you think about the lore :o
Like
at all

Good points where made, and silly points were made, and no diffrence will be made o ^o


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - SharpTeeth - 09-04-2015

To be honest, I didn't expect anyone else to care. You aren't the one my criticism is meant for, but I will gladly defend any attempts to poke holes in it. The only way to make authors take another look at their work is to be frank and honest, to show what they can work on, even if no one else notices.
(09-03-2015, 11:56 PM)Segolia Wrote:
(09-03-2015, 11:47 PM)SharpTeeth Wrote: With the Avali being so overly convulted because its trying to be so hard-scifi it needs to have more handwaved away than to simply try to explain everything away.
That's the problem, they're not trying to be hard sci fi.

PM spam incoming.


RE: Ryu's lore and art dump. - Cole4110 - 09-04-2015

(09-04-2015, 12:03 AM)SharpTeeth Wrote: To be honest, I didn't expect anyone else to care. You aren't the one my criticism is meant for, but I will gladly defend any attempts to poke holes in it. The only way to make authors take another look at their work is to be frank and honest, to show what they can work on, even if no one else notices.


(09-03-2015, 11:56 PM)Segolia Wrote: That's the problem, they're not trying to be hard sci fi.

PM spam incoming.
The part where this mentality falls short is: i can be fairly certain ryu doesnt care much himself either > ^> Your basically 
 throwing bones at a color printer and asking it to dance you a showtune.
I can really understand if you see flaws in the lore and would like to see them fixed?...
But Lets be real here if ryu wanted the criticism you wouldn't of had to chase him down to the fourms 
Of course i can speak all to well for him but from what i know he doesn't care what you have to say and still nobody else does
 Avali wont be hard sci-fi lore with fleshier story than a ham sandwich. Its just a fun little race for starbound that caught on, thats it.