09-03-2015, 11:29 PM
My turn! I've been waiting for this for a long time! I love to argue even inane shit, so prepare yourself.
"Have you looked at the Avali? Not trying to figure them out, simply looked at them? They are an incredibly attractive race: well designed, a blend of the familiar with the alien and strange; a cute appearance contrasted with a surprisingly predatory and cunning nature. You look at them from a standpoint of pure science and see a confusing mishmash."
No, actually, the problem is from a storyteller point of view, a large portion of these details are simply unnecessary. King, Vonnegut, Asimov, and even Butcher all warn against excessive detail for many reasons, like digging yourself into a narrative hole or the fact that any detail that simply does not play a part in explaining what they are is irrelevant and hurts the concept more than it helps. The huge problem with this is that they are a confusing mishmash for two reasons: A- Their very lore appears to have been crammed together, as their conception wasn't carefully planned. From a visible point of view, they have the tech of one race and the biology of another slammed together, leading to gems such as giving a blind race visually based augmentation! B- The variance between the plausability between the facts Ryu put up veers sharply from very plausible to outright fictitious imaginations, for one very simple reason, well two actually.* He can't decide if he wants something fantastical or grounded and it shows!
"The difference between fantasy and science fiction isn’t a hard division of impossibility and possibility, but one of plausibility. Would you begrudge science fiction faster-than-light travel? Very few people would, and for a very simple reason. It tends to make science fiction stories rather dull. We are not particularly interested in what happened to the 133rd generation of humans midway through their voyage on a sub-light colony ship."
Again, you seem to be equating my argument as an offense against its science, rather than a critical look at how the excessive detail causes the concept to stumble. On that note, Ryu himself seems to be having trouble making things fictitious when it would suit the concept, like trying to toss out technobabble like "Einstein-Rosen bridge" when wormhole would have sufficed or the fact that he could have just simply made up a special ftl exception like every other work of fiction. He is trying too hard to make them grounded amidst all the fantasy he cobbled together.
" I do take exception to the final line however. “The biggest example of this? Making a species that would be chemically burned by water then placing them on a ball of ice.” Imagine the temerity of evolution placing humans – creatures that suffer tremendous thermal burns when they contact magma – on a planet made entirely of frozen rock. It’s almost enough to make you think the universe was created by an inexperienced trickster god, isn’t it."
There are very large problems with this point and I'll show you why:
Then don't bother listing so much detail. You don't have to justify anything fictitious, but Ryu seems to be having a hard time grasping this.*
"I did find your point about Avali hearing, particularly their protective nerve impulses, positively amusing. You said: “At most it [protective nerve impulses] would protect them from long term damage from constant loud sounds but not instantaneous explosively loud sounds.”"
I noted this because Ryu thinks twitch nerve impulses mean total immunity. Also, sound senses are a hundred times more sensitive than optical, due to the way they are structured.
" Ignoring the in-itself hilarious concept of the Avali evolving in an environment in which “explosively loud sounds” are so commonplace as to require adaptation; "
Ice shelf cracking. On a planet totally covered in ice. Or the low intense grumbling that exists in coastal ice shelves. That is all.
"(melee weapons, by the by, intended for hunting large, unarmored prey, not warfare)."
Medieval history by the by disagrees with you. Did you see how we invented the fuller? Pikes? Armor piercing non-edged blades? As soon as we raised a rock, we were killing each other, and mother nature wouldn't have it any other way.
"I do think you over-estimate the degree of mental anguish inflicted by loss of a pack"
Check the wiki? I had to do a double take when I first saw it.
"Your comments on cybernetics, I find, are again an example of begrudging Ryuujin the right to describe function rather than specifics"
Cybernetics are a bit of a touchy subject, you have to understand how they truly work before you begin to write with them, otherwise it ends up looking rather silly when you end up feeding optical data to a creature that can't handle it.
"But this, the Avali, this is not science. This is a work of fiction, one that draws and borrows from science because that is what its audience and creator finds enjoyable. I have seen Ryuujin’s work long enough to be fully confident in his understanding of the science of what he’s doing. What he recognizes though, and perhaps has a greater tolerance for than yourself, is the role of story. And sometimes telling the story you want takes precedence over telling it with accurate science."
A point I agree with, but again, Ryu needs to stop trying force reality to bend to his will. Storytelling needs both a balance of plausibility and fantasy. Science and magic, so to speak, and again, most of the science he puts in has absolutely no basis in reality and needs to be either rethought or simply handwaved. On that note, handwaving: its pretty clear Ryu is uncomfortable with doing it in the first place, but the first thing every author needs to learn is how to bullshit things away. I never cared how the Avali worked, but rather how the details factor into the main story. If you could render the Avali into one sentence what would it be? From that point, you need to slowly work details that are relevant to the core concept and not toss in fluff, as this clogs up any narrative point you are trying to make. It's very clear he wants to make a cautionary tale of the dangers of technology, but there is piles and piles of unnecessary detail, plus there is no true reason to really care about the Avali. On a very objective standpoint, you could replace the Avali with anything else cute with the same lore and still make the exact same race, and that is the problem. What are the Avali? Who are they? What do they do? It's true basing reality in a story helps enable structure but he needs to be more fantastical in his writing.
One last thing. The eyes are actually something you should reconsider. He wrote them with facial expressions, writing, and hunting capabilities, and those all require sight. No exceptions. I wouldn't have a problem if they were blind as long as it was handwaved or justified in some manner.
"You encourage Ryuujin to not be ashamed of the fantastic, while seemingly refusing to accept that perhaps the fantastic elements he has are exactly the ones he wants."
To quote myself (ugh):
"I believe your problem is, that on some level, you want them to be real. That's okay. It's okay to have some wish fulfillment and self indulgence, but you need to be aware of this and embrace it or overcome it, rather than trying to marry reality and fantasy together. If you aren't careful and don't know where to draw the line, it becomes hard to tell what details are needed and what is just excessive fluff."
"Have you looked at the Avali? Not trying to figure them out, simply looked at them? They are an incredibly attractive race: well designed, a blend of the familiar with the alien and strange; a cute appearance contrasted with a surprisingly predatory and cunning nature. You look at them from a standpoint of pure science and see a confusing mishmash."
No, actually, the problem is from a storyteller point of view, a large portion of these details are simply unnecessary. King, Vonnegut, Asimov, and even Butcher all warn against excessive detail for many reasons, like digging yourself into a narrative hole or the fact that any detail that simply does not play a part in explaining what they are is irrelevant and hurts the concept more than it helps. The huge problem with this is that they are a confusing mishmash for two reasons: A- Their very lore appears to have been crammed together, as their conception wasn't carefully planned. From a visible point of view, they have the tech of one race and the biology of another slammed together, leading to gems such as giving a blind race visually based augmentation! B- The variance between the plausability between the facts Ryu put up veers sharply from very plausible to outright fictitious imaginations, for one very simple reason, well two actually.* He can't decide if he wants something fantastical or grounded and it shows!
"The difference between fantasy and science fiction isn’t a hard division of impossibility and possibility, but one of plausibility. Would you begrudge science fiction faster-than-light travel? Very few people would, and for a very simple reason. It tends to make science fiction stories rather dull. We are not particularly interested in what happened to the 133rd generation of humans midway through their voyage on a sub-light colony ship."
Again, you seem to be equating my argument as an offense against its science, rather than a critical look at how the excessive detail causes the concept to stumble. On that note, Ryu himself seems to be having trouble making things fictitious when it would suit the concept, like trying to toss out technobabble like "Einstein-Rosen bridge" when wormhole would have sufficed or the fact that he could have just simply made up a special ftl exception like every other work of fiction. He is trying too hard to make them grounded amidst all the fantasy he cobbled together.
" I do take exception to the final line however. “The biggest example of this? Making a species that would be chemically burned by water then placing them on a ball of ice.” Imagine the temerity of evolution placing humans – creatures that suffer tremendous thermal burns when they contact magma – on a planet made entirely of frozen rock. It’s almost enough to make you think the universe was created by an inexperienced trickster god, isn’t it."
There are very large problems with this point and I'll show you why:
- An ammonia based biology has very large problems with water itself. For very similar reasons to why ammonia itself would be harmful to terrestrial life, water would cause even more damage to ammonia based biology. Due to the fact that water is a much stronger polar force, along with the chemical burns, it would interfere with their biology on a horrific scale, especially if the water works its way inside, and shut down their sugar processes, leading to a very painful death.
- Putting an ammonia based biology on a planet made of ICE (water), with constant snowstorms (water), and plentiful humidity in the air (water) is a very bad idea. It's like putting humanity on a planet with acid as the floor, air, and water. Even if ice is frozen, high school chemical safety should have shown you that even solid reagents are very hazardous.
- Are you equating biological incompatibility to environmental hazards? Talk about false equivalency. At most, water would prevent ammonia based life from arising if it exists in even small quantities. A hybrid solvent solution is still very much possible.
Then don't bother listing so much detail. You don't have to justify anything fictitious, but Ryu seems to be having a hard time grasping this.*
"I did find your point about Avali hearing, particularly their protective nerve impulses, positively amusing. You said: “At most it [protective nerve impulses] would protect them from long term damage from constant loud sounds but not instantaneous explosively loud sounds.”"
I noted this because Ryu thinks twitch nerve impulses mean total immunity. Also, sound senses are a hundred times more sensitive than optical, due to the way they are structured.
" Ignoring the in-itself hilarious concept of the Avali evolving in an environment in which “explosively loud sounds” are so commonplace as to require adaptation; "
Ice shelf cracking. On a planet totally covered in ice. Or the low intense grumbling that exists in coastal ice shelves. That is all.
"(melee weapons, by the by, intended for hunting large, unarmored prey, not warfare)."
Medieval history by the by disagrees with you. Did you see how we invented the fuller? Pikes? Armor piercing non-edged blades? As soon as we raised a rock, we were killing each other, and mother nature wouldn't have it any other way.
"I do think you over-estimate the degree of mental anguish inflicted by loss of a pack"
Check the wiki? I had to do a double take when I first saw it.
"Your comments on cybernetics, I find, are again an example of begrudging Ryuujin the right to describe function rather than specifics"
Cybernetics are a bit of a touchy subject, you have to understand how they truly work before you begin to write with them, otherwise it ends up looking rather silly when you end up feeding optical data to a creature that can't handle it.
"But this, the Avali, this is not science. This is a work of fiction, one that draws and borrows from science because that is what its audience and creator finds enjoyable. I have seen Ryuujin’s work long enough to be fully confident in his understanding of the science of what he’s doing. What he recognizes though, and perhaps has a greater tolerance for than yourself, is the role of story. And sometimes telling the story you want takes precedence over telling it with accurate science."
A point I agree with, but again, Ryu needs to stop trying force reality to bend to his will. Storytelling needs both a balance of plausibility and fantasy. Science and magic, so to speak, and again, most of the science he puts in has absolutely no basis in reality and needs to be either rethought or simply handwaved. On that note, handwaving: its pretty clear Ryu is uncomfortable with doing it in the first place, but the first thing every author needs to learn is how to bullshit things away. I never cared how the Avali worked, but rather how the details factor into the main story. If you could render the Avali into one sentence what would it be? From that point, you need to slowly work details that are relevant to the core concept and not toss in fluff, as this clogs up any narrative point you are trying to make. It's very clear he wants to make a cautionary tale of the dangers of technology, but there is piles and piles of unnecessary detail, plus there is no true reason to really care about the Avali. On a very objective standpoint, you could replace the Avali with anything else cute with the same lore and still make the exact same race, and that is the problem. What are the Avali? Who are they? What do they do? It's true basing reality in a story helps enable structure but he needs to be more fantastical in his writing.
One last thing. The eyes are actually something you should reconsider. He wrote them with facial expressions, writing, and hunting capabilities, and those all require sight. No exceptions. I wouldn't have a problem if they were blind as long as it was handwaved or justified in some manner.
"You encourage Ryuujin to not be ashamed of the fantastic, while seemingly refusing to accept that perhaps the fantastic elements he has are exactly the ones he wants."
To quote myself (ugh):
"I believe your problem is, that on some level, you want them to be real. That's okay. It's okay to have some wish fulfillment and self indulgence, but you need to be aware of this and embrace it or overcome it, rather than trying to marry reality and fantasy together. If you aren't careful and don't know where to draw the line, it becomes hard to tell what details are needed and what is just excessive fluff."
Harshest critic of the Avali. An idea that never changes is a truly dead one.